IDL18 Season 1: Between Grit and Grace with Dr. Sasha Shillcutt
Why is the principle of diversity important for leaders to understand and embody? How can both leaders and employees flip their egos to create an accountable and vulnerable space where the business and the people can grow? When do you know if the business model should change?
Dr. Sasha Shillcutt and I speak about her career, why she has this deep desire to be a catalyst in leadership, embodying diversity and why you should not let your ego get in the way.
Meet Dr. Sasha Shillcutt
Dr. Sasha Shillcutt is a renowned cardiac anesthesiologist, gender equity researcher, TedX Speaker, published author, podcast host and CEO of Brave Enough, where she leads over 20,000 women on living connected and courageous lives.
Visit Dr. Shillcutt’s website. Connect on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter.
Listen to Dr. Shillcutt’s podcast: The Brave Enough Show
In this episode we discuss:
Embodying diversity as a leader
Don’t let your ego get in the way
How can a leadership group expand the conversation?
EMBODYING DIVERSITY AS A LEADER
If you are leading a group of people who look the same as you, talk and think the same as you do, it becomes increasingly difficult for you to think outside of the box because you have, with the lack of diversity, placed yourself in the box.
Leaders need to encourage and embody diversity in their businesses and in their lives because it is one of the only ways to truly learn to see, and practicing seeing, other people, perspectives, and ways of viewing the world. One of the most important qualities a leader can have is empathy, and through diversity, leaders can practice their empathy.
“I think it’s important that we allow those checks and balances and we think about if everybody who is making a decision or checking my work looks like me, talks like me, grew up in the same area I did, we’re probably going to have some serious blind spots. ”
This connects to the fact that leaders, by the nature of who they are, need to open up and encourage and receive feedback so that they can lead the people they are in charge of with integrity, awareness, and empathy.
DON’T LET YOUR EGO GET IN THE WAY
As a leader – and in some ways, as an employee – do not let your ego get in the way.
Be open to receiving feedback and encourage it,
When someone comments or gives advice, be open to it even if you may disagree at first,
Do not let the title of leader inhibit you from being able to connect with the people that you lead.
It goes both ways; for a leader to be honest and vulnerable to create a space for honesty and accountability, which in turn allows employees to be honest and vulnerable with their leader.
This is because the employees know that they will be taken seriously because emotional maturity was modeled by the leader in the beginning.
This system is important not only for the functioning of the business but also for the mental health of everyone involved: when space is created where real talk is encouraged and received with honesty and accountability, both leader and employee can be their authentic selves, act on what needs to be acted on and know that they are fully accepted.
“If I love myself and I display love for myself then I’m saying: “hey, I don’t have it all together” and what I think that does in my experience is that actually helps other people take a deep breath and say: “okay, I don’t have to be held to the standard that I can’t possibly hold to” because you and I both know even our façade may say “I got this” the reality is saying “oh shit, how am I going to do this?” ”
HOW CAN A LEADERSHIP GROUP EXPAND THE CONVERSATION
Often it is the role that needs to be changed, not the continuous looking for the “perfect” person.
“The role is not made for someone who needs to go home and feed their children at 6pm … you have to think differently: the question should be “how do we redefine the role?” ”
It is an outdated idea to structure people to fit into the business, instead of changing the business to suit the employees.
Having work flexibility and encouraging leaders to look out for the health of their employees will create a universal work environment wherein everyone can flourish while not having to sacrifice their life for that business evolution.
There is a chance for both the business and the employees to thrive, these two things are not mutually exclusive and if they are in your business, it may be time to reevaluate the company’s structure.
Resources, books, and links mentioned in this episode:
Visit Dr. Shillcutt’s website. Connect on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter.
Listen to Dr. Shillcutt’s podcast: The Brave Enough Show
The Impact Driven Leader YouTube Channel
Join the Impact Driven Leader Community
Connect with Tyler on Instagram and LinkedIn
BOOK | Dr. Sasha K. Shillcutt MD – Between Grit and Grace: How to Be Feminine and Formidable
About the Impact Driven Leader Podcast
The Impact Driven Leader Podcast, hosted by Tyler Dickerhoof, is for Xillennial leaders who have felt alone and ill-equipped to lead in today's world. Through inspiring interviews with authors from around the world, Tyler uncovers how unique leadership strengths can empower others to achieve so much more, with real impact.
Rate, review and subscribe here on Apple Podcasts or subscribe on Stitcher and Spotify.
I think one of the most courageous things that we can do every day, is to show up as ourselves And to share our authentic style of leadership with the world.
Dr. Sasha Shillcutt
Podcast Transcription
[TYLER DICKERHOOF]
Welcome back to the Impact Driven Leader podcast. This is Tyler Dickerhoof. So glad you're here. So glad you're listening in. Man, this is probably one of the most enjoyable get hardest interviews ever had. So let me lay the scene here. So I got introduced to Dr. Sasha Shillcutt our guest today. She's a cardiac anesthesiologist, she's an author, she's a mother of four. She's got a lot going on. I love her just demeanor and personality. We have so much fun together. It was a little hard to get there. We had in a day where my internet just died, I don't know what happened. The internet died about seven, eight minutes into the interview. So we had to reschedule and then all of a sudden Sasha was having computer issues. So then we had to jump to Zoom.
So it's coming from a lot of different places and ultimately I just throw all the notes out the window as you'll hear. And we had a great conversation and it went to so many different places and I just love that. I hope you love that too. We talk about her career as a cardiac anesthesiologist, what she's seen, why she has this deep desire to really be a catalyst in leadership and leadership for women in the medical industry. I just love her heart, her passion. You know, I last week, if you listened to the episode with Ian Morgan Cron, Sasha's an Enneagram eight as well, and we really bond over that. Man, I hope you get a lot out of this episode. I hope that you check out her organization Brave Enough. I hope you check out her book. It's really good. Like she's got some great stuff in there.
Not that I wouldn't expect that. She's a TEDx speaker and she's just good. And from a leadership perspective, this to me is seeing leadership at work. It's not all dressed up and fancy, and I know Sasha can get that way. I know any of us can get that way, but sometimes leadership is a little messy and we play that out. So you're going to love this episode because I loved my interaction and conversation with Sasha. If you've made it this far, I think you're kind of into that stuff. So thanks for being here. Hey, as well, give me a rating, give me a review, let us know how we're doing. Appreciate it. And I'll see you at the end.
[TYLER]
All right. Well, Dr. Sasha Shillcutt, thank you so much for being with me again. This is take two. You know, it's one of the funny things about podcasts is people have no idea. I'm a one-take person. I'd rather just do one take. It is what it is, but we get two takes and to me, that is a blessing. So thank you for joining me again.
[DR. SASHA SHILLCUTT]
Well, thanks for having me. It was really fun to chat with you last time. We share so many common things and our personalities and our challenges and struggles and so I was actually really excited that we get to chat again.
[TYLER]
Well, good. So as part of this conversation ongoing for you and I, and really talking about this idea of, as your book Between Grit and Grace and being brave and just hold the idea as leaders to be brave enough. And so let's just jump off there. Why do you see that in our world from a leadership perspective that we need to embrace healthy, you know courage and being brave?
[DR. SASHA]
Yes. I think that there's this whole kind of thought behind the word brave. Like when you think of something brave or someone doing something brave, you think of them doing something major. Like they're stating someone from a burning fire or they made a huge decision in their life, but the reason that I call my company Brave Enough is because I think one of the most courageous things that we can do every day is to show up as ourselves and to share our authentic style of leadership with the world. That itself is really brave to not go into your workplace every day or even your home and have something to prove or to be something you're not, or to lead in a way that doesn't feel natural.
So the reason I wrote the book Between Grit and Grace is because I think most of us as leaders fall between those two words somewhere. And it changes. One day I may be a more gritty leader and the next day I may be a more grace giving leader because that's what I'm called to be. So for me, it's like just enough brave to show up every day as yourself. It's not some like courageous act. It's not some like big thing, that monumental thing that someone's going to write about you in a book someday, but just showing up authentically. And when you do that, you allow other people to be their authentic self. Like when you show your unique traits, your unique styles of leadership, or when you are really transparent about your own struggles and you're vulnerable, you allow other people to be the specific kind of leader or colleague and share their traits that are unique to them.
[DR. SASHA]
You say, "It's okay. It's okay if you're this type of leader or this style of leader." So we talked, you and I were talking about like some core competencies, some things that are like, non-negotiable like integrity. You and I would probably say we don't really care the style of leadership as long as that leader has integrity or as long as they have transparency, when they're telling us when things are going well in the business, or they're not going well in this project or whatever. But how you lead is really an expression of your unique self. And if we start to say like, there's only one way that you, this is what a leader looks like, and you have to look like this and you have to dress like this and walk and talk like this and care about these specific things, you're probably not allowing others. You're not demonstrating your authentic self and you're not opening it up for other to do.
[TYLER]
You know, so it's been, I don't know, a week now or 10 days and time flies. I mean, especially when you have kids still kind of bounce around home, I know you have a four kids yourself, but I've learned some more and I continue to read. And I don't know if you're a fan, but to me it opens up this conversation as well, Brene Brown talks to all about vulnerability and this idea. And I think it interjects. As we talked a lot last time about confidence, and we'll talk about confidence again, but this idea of being vulnerable enough to invite people, to be themselves as you're being yourself, as opposed to feeling like you need to hold this image, because that's what the position of leadership it is described as really does more harm than good.
If you're saying, "Hey, this is who I am. I'm Sasha. I lead like this and I'm going to love you, and I'm going to fight with you, and yet there's a standard here that we need to hold," to me, that invites people when it's done out of love and compassion and empathy to do the same. And that's, to me what you were describing. And I believe that is for a lot of people, that's got to be learned for me. I had to learn that. So I was talking to someone and they were talking about, I think there's mom to a lady and we're working on something with, the John Maxwell stuff and she's just like, "Oh, my goodness, the world is spinning." And I'm like, "Yes, I just had a thought come to me." When your world is spinning you're pivoting and pivoting and pivoting and pivoting.
What do ice skaters do? They have to reach their arms out. When you just slow down the spin, you got to reach your arms out. Well, that's a universal sign. As you can see on video, when you reach your arms out, it's kind of like I need help. And I think that's a big lesson in life and something that we were talking about when we cut off before, but I think we can say that, I don't know, we'll find out, but this idea that I had to learn to embrace others in order that I could be a better leader And really just a leader is a better like Schumann. And to me, I come back to this idea of when you're pivoting so much, you're spinning. You're just trying to make it work. I don't think I've ever done that. I've had that happen where I just had to reach my arms out and say, "I need help. I can't do this all."
[DR. SASHA]
Yes. And I think we have this thought that somewhat distorted that as a leader, we should just be working the hardest and doing the most and if we do that, then everyone will think we're a great leader and they'll do what they're supposed to be doing. But the truth is that when you think, when you go it alone, you will be alone. You will be alone in the good times and the bad times. And it has taken me a long time to recognize like medicine is a team sport. You know, medicine can not be practiced by one person. It takes multiple people. And it took me a while to find my voice, to know when to ask for help and to not see that as a weakness. In fact, one of the affirmations I have on my mirror in the morning is I love myself so I ask for help.
Because it's not natural for me to ask for help. I would do everything all the time by myself, fix everybody's problems, work the hardest so that somehow in my mind, I think that's helping people if I work harder than everybody else. And I think that's sold a lot as kind of a leadership thing. You know, you got to put in the most hours, you got to work the hardest. So I have that affirmation on my mirror because I have to remind myself that asking for help is actually like the most powerful thing I can do as a leader and showing, demonstrating that it's okay to ask for help, like, it's also okay to say, "I don't know, or I'm sorry." You know, things that we don't think are leadership traits.
We don't want as leaders to say, "I don't know, or I made a mistake," but we actually need those attributes in leaders. So I think you're right. I think though, I like the spinning, the putting your arms out. It's really hard to make a mistake when you are asking for help. When you're asking people to help you and you have more people that have their eyes on whatever you're doing, the likelihood that there's going to be a mistake decreases with that.
[TYLER]
I'm guessing that has been probably a real, I would say, tenet of medical practice. You have to have that checks and balances per se to say, "Hey, okay, if I'm administering this compound to someone to get them down to 18 degrees," and that's as far as, I mean, my rough amount of understanding anesthesiologist. I was a nutritionist for cows. Okay, come on, just give me some grace. And as you're doing that though, you have to make sure there's a difference between one ML and10 MLS. But if you're using the wrong syringe, that's a big difference, but it's having the checks and balance. If we do that in our other places of life, do we have someone in the inner circle saying, "Hey you're being kind of a jackass. Did you realize that?"
[DR. SASHA]
Right. And this is where diversity is so important because diversity is another check and balance. Like if you are not, if that's simply literally what it is, it's the person going, "Wait a minute, we forgot about this entire customer issue or a minute, wait a minute, how's that going to work what we just did for moms who, or dads who have to pick up their kids at five o'clock?" If our only promotion and tenure thing is always at 5:00 PM, who are we leaving out? Or wait a minute, how is the way that we phrase this, going to talk to this group of people? That's what diversity is. It's checks and balances on whatever you're doing, whatever mission or vision you're doing, that you're thinking outside of your own head or your own people that you do life with. Because we all know we're drawn to people that look like us that talk like us, that run in the same social circles, that those are the people that we're going to navigate to. If you put a hundred of us in a room we're going to navigate to the people that we think we share something in common.
So what happens is you get blind, you have blind spots, like you have blind spots. And it was interesting a couple years ago when I first started my podcast, I was talking about working moms and working parents. And I had one of my male colleagues tell me, he said, "I've started listening to your podcast." And I was like, "Oh, really?" And he's like, "Yes. And you don't realize like I'm a dad. I struggle with a lot of the same things that you are talking about, that the women's struggle with." He's like, "You might want to think about when you're talking about working moms, thinking about working parents. And I was like, "Oh, I hadn't thought of that." So I think it's really important that we allow those checks and balances and we think about like, if everybody that is making a decision or checking my work looks like me, talks like me, grew up in the same area that I did, we're probably going to have some serious blind spots just by the nature of who we are.
[TYLER]
Well, and I think what that invites in is the, going back to the, as a leader, I need to open up and invite people in to give that feedback. And so our great responsibility is to ask those questions, because to me, that invites people in to give feedback as opposed to, "Well, I can't ask her a question because I don't have the tenure. I don't have the title. I don't have whatever else." And it's like, I'm going to guess you're in a surge. Again, I'm creating a lot of pictures here. I don't know if they're right, correct me if I'm wrong, but if you're doing a surgery and the person that is most junior in that room, if they have the authority, if you present yourself and they come up and say, "Hey, Sasha, I just noticed that you might want to check that," if you lash out at them and say, "Don't ever question me in an operating room again," who's going to get hurt? The patient. But yet, we allow our ego to jump in on and say, "Oh, thank you for catching that. You know what, actually, this is what's going on." We all learned is different than if we get offended.
[DR. SASHA]
Absolutely. And that's, what's so important is making sure that you also demonstrate for people that are junior or that are learning to train the trainees, that you never let your ego get in the way of the patient. And it's probably the same in business. You know, you shouldn't, you don't want to let your ego get in the way of your customer or your business, because it will hurt. It'll always hurt. Like I always tell the residents I'm working with, if you make a mistake, like, you made one mistake, you want to tell everybody actually that you just made a mistake because in order to correct that mistake, you're going to have to do something.
You're going to have to take an action. You're going to have to give a drug, give a different procedure, that procedure. Now you're doing a second thing to kind of cover up the first thing and you're going to hide it. You're going to have to hide it. So just say it out, tell everybody like, "Oh my gosh, I just made an error. I need some help to fix this or everybody I just gave this wrong drug. Our blood pressure is going to go really high. I'm going to fix it. I'm just alerting everybody in the room and really drawing on that sense of transparency and vulnerability, because we are human and we're going to make mistakes. We're going to make mistakes in leadership, in whatever arena that we work in with our kids, with our marriage, with our friends. And we have to recognize that that's part of being a leader is saying, "I screwed up. I made a mistake."
[TYLER]
So one of the topics that you talk about in your book. I'm just remembering the notes here, because we remember we threw them away to the side. We're just having a conversation now. It's talking about loneliness and I think you brunched that earlier about if we think we can do it all on our own, we end up creating an island out of our own volition. We made this island and really the opportunity to populate that island is inviting people in to say, "Hey, help me with this. Be with this." That, to me, going back to that picture of opening up your arms, invites more people in. Why do you think either men, women, leaders, why don't you think they want to do that?
[DR. SASHA]
Well, nobody wants to none of us want to put on our, none of us put on our resumes or CVS, all of the ways we failed.
[TYLER]
Should we?
[DR. SASHA]
We probably should, because those are the things, were the times we learned. Like those are the things that we learn. Like, I mean, the book was awesome that writing the book, getting a book published, but I didn't learn anything from when the book was published. Everything I learned was in all the rejections. All the times they said, "Nope, your book proposal is not good enough," I went back and made it better. So like, that's what really taught me. And I don't think that we oftentimes see, as leaders that actually the people that are following us are likely following us or appreciate us for how transparent we are. Like they want us to be honest with them because that's what ensures trust so I think it's very right now, isolation is real and it's scary how isolated people are in our world right now with the pandemic. And not to take this a terribly negative direction, but ---
[TYLER]
Keep it average.
But we just had, we just lost a surgeon, a very prominent surgeon to suicide about three weeks ago. And this is a person with phenomenal career, like phenomenal career. And none of us that worked with him would have ever said, this is happening. This would happen and so I think that we have to check in with one another. We also have to take care of our leaders. You know, we have to take care of the people that we think look like they have it all together. If you, as a leader don't have one person that you can confide in, there's research to say that that is actually a risk for substance abuse, depression and suicidal ideation if you are a leader of a company or in your workplace, and you don't have one person in your workplace that you can be transparent with.
But the opposite is true. If you do have that one person that you can say, like, "I am not doing well on this on it or I'm struggling with this, it's protected against those negative things." So I think isolation is real. I think it's something that leaders also deal with. And the best way is just to be an example to those, of all of our people around us and be like, "Look I'm struggling. I didn't show up as me last week. Like that wasn't me. I was really struggling. I'm going to try to work on this today or I need three days off because I'm not doing well. I need to spend time with my family." We have to just demonstrate that and get rid of this, like the martyr leader, where we work harder than everybody else and we've looked down upon people who ask for help.
Well, I think that as you recognize, and I think it's fun seeing it from, again, your perspective as a mom of four, who's an Enneagram, eight, that's a challenger, a displayed leader and as a male who is intimidating by nature is people tell me when I don't think I am. And it's for us to be able to say, "Hey, now I don't have it all together. I think it is very powerful and to me, it comes back to what you said, if I love myself, if I'm displaying love for myself, then I'm saying, "Hey, I don't have it all together." And I think what that does, in my experience is that actually helps other people take a deep breath and say, "Okay, I don't have to be held to this standard that I can't possibly hold to." Because you and I both know, even though our facade may say, "Hey, we got this, I got this," the reality is, we're saying, "Oh, shit, how am I going to do this?"
[DR. SASHA]
Well, and don't you think it's, I mean, as an eight, do you ever get, and I'm probably going to sound a little crazy, but do you ever get paranoid when you ask for help that the person is going to like, hold it against you or something or like they're going to use it? I mean, this is where my eight brain goes. Like sometimes it'll go ---
[TYLER]
Depends who it is. If it's my wife, absolutely, absolutely. My wife, I am like scared to death. Oh my goodness. I am just, I am like that. Other people, what I think it goes to is that's where it takes that, being vulnerable is learning. And it's been told, and I'll describe this way, tell the truth at all times, but understand what truth you need to tell. And I think that's again, what I've heard with vulnerability, it's like be vulnerable, but understand the impact of your vulnerability. It's like, if it's going to drag somebody down, that's not helping. But if you're letting someone look and just say, "This is what I'm dealing with," so when it comes back to that, who do you confide in? If you have someone you can confide in and you feel like, "Hey, I can tell them anything and they're not going to think less of me," that's great. And yet, if there's someone that you don't have that and you're like, "I'm afraid if I tell them what I'm really struggling with," they're going to like, think less of me.
[DR. SASHA]
Right. Yes, you totally are right. And there's a time and there's a place for, I think vulnerability. I don't think you need to be vulnerable with everybody on the planet. Like, I don't think you need to go on social media and say, "I'm failing as a leader." Like I think, yes ---
[TYLER]
Get it together already.
[DR. SASHA]
Yes. I think you have to be really specific and intentional on what you share but I think that it's really, I know for me when I, like, I just, people level up in my brain. When I see someone that is like awesome and they are like, "You know what? I screwed up." Like people that fail as people, when they're like, when they own it, I don't ever go, "Hi, I'm canceling that person." I actually like, they just kind of level up in my brain as an eight. I'm like, "Oh yes. Okay, so you're human and you owned it." Like it's amazing to me how many times I think we don't actually verbalize that. Like we don't say like, "Yu know what, you made a mistake and I actually like really appreciated how you apologized or how you owned that mistake as a leader and I actually want to follow you more now because you were so transparent with that, or you just had that struggle and you owned it." Like people level up in my brain when they do that. It's the people who try to cover it up or aren't transparent about it that make me go, "I don't want to work for that person. Like how do I know they're going to be transparent about other things?"
[TYLER]
Well, I think that comes back to trust and I believe there's a part of me, it's like, I want to collaborate because I want to be a part of a team and I want to take people with me. But there's also, like something happened last week, like an angry line, because I wanted to protect those on our team. And it's like, "I'll throw down to protect those on my team more than I will to protect myself." It's like, "I'm not going to swing at, I'm not a fighter, but yet if it comes down to a protection, oh yes, I'm going to protect people." And I think that's when it comes to, in that conversation, "Hey, if I can find you as a team and we're collaborating, I'm like, hey, help me out here," I'm going to do whatever to help you because of that vulnerability and that shared like, "Okay, we're in this together."
[DR. SASHA]
Yes. And as an eight, I think it's our natural kind of, as eights, it's our natural kind of progression to go right to like, okay, we're going to like protect and defend. And sometimes I think we do that at our own expense. I mean, I know I do at my own expense. I'm sure you do.
[TYLER]
But that's where I look at it, is again, I would rather stand up for someone else that maybe is not in a position to do so from a leadership perspective and hurt myself as opposed to, I've never stood up for them when I knew that I could.
[DR. SASHA]
Yes. And that comes with, I think, maturity and comes with experience because I don't know that I really would have done that type of, stood up for people early in my career. I think I was like, I got to be the best, I got to like get, you know but just like yesterday I received an invitation to author something and I looked at the list and it was 12 men and me. I thought five, 10 years ago, even I would have been like, "Wow, I'm the only woman. This is awesome." And I just kindly said, I'm not giving my time to things where I don't have, I can't influence the equity. So if you are interested in changing the lineup of the authors, I will sign on, but unfortunately I'm limiting my time to projects where I can influence equity. So if you're interested in putting more women on here or persons of color, I will sign on, but for me, I'm not going to accept this. And it was like, whoa.
But I'm like, I have to stand. That's a way, that's a circle that I could stand up. Like I can't stand up in every circle, but I could stand up for people who weren't at the table. And I did, and I feel fine about it, whatever the outcome is. Maybe I did a little, I mean, I'm sure the people were like, "Oh, that was a blind spot. We didn't even see that that was going on." So I think we have to, but I wouldn't have done that five years ago. I wasn't at that place of maturity where I could have, or even knowledge where I could have seen, like, actually it's not good to be the only woman out as well. Like, it doesn't really do much for me. It would do more for women as a whole or marginalized people as a whole if we invite more diversity and the product will be better.
[TYLER]
Yes. Well, I mean, I think that's what we've said from a leadership perspective, from a growth, from a leadership perspective, from moving forward, is we need to invite more into, regardless of any race, creed, division. It doesn't matter. The more viewpoints we get, every single situation is going to be described better.
[DR. SASHA]
Yes.
[TYLER]
And so it, but as a challenge to a leader is to be able to say, I'm going to stand for that as opposed to this isn't my fight to fight today. I'm just trying to keep my job, but then realizing, hey, our opportunity though, is, coming back to this, if we all become followers, then all of a sudden we end up all following, falling off the edge. But if we're willing to be vulnerable enough to say, hey, this may cost me something, but yet I'm standing up for those that can't for all the right reasons and these are my values, because we talked about earlier, where are your values, well then at the end of the day, if it doesn't go this way, that's okay.
[DR. SASHA]
Yes. Yes. And, and it's funny because I showed the email to my husband before I sent it. He's like my filter and so he puts it through like the protocol filter and he's like, "Actually I think that's really well written. I think it's going to be well received. I think they're going to probably say like, thank you for recognizing this or pointing us out." But it's funny because like I thought to myself I hope that as I enter more circles and as I learn more as a leader, I have more opportunities like that. And I also am the person that other people feel, they can say, "You know what Sasha? You have a blind spot right here. You're not seeing this group or this idea this way." That I hope that I would be more open to other people challenging me.
So that's kind of where, where I am now as a leader. I don't claim to have it all together. I don't claim to have it all figured out. I'm constantly trying to check myself and check my ego at the door, which is hard for an eight. We burn fast and furious.
[TYLER]
I think as I've learned the more I practice vulnerability and I'm cool with it, the more it does fuel. It's like, I have this idea, come, I have zero problem making a fool out of myself in service of others. And that's a vulnerability. It's like, I can do that. Now what I find is other people get embarrassed for me and I'm like, "No, it's all right. I'm willing to." But that's been a practice of seeing them. That's been a practice of saying, "Okay, I can stand up in the room and I can be the one to say, hey, ah-ah," and then all of a sudden it actually turns out okay and not like there's this massive backlash. Because usually it's like, if you're standing up for something, it's pretty right reasons. I would say in general challengers, you know eights aren't ones that stand up against like, if they're healthy toxic against healthy, right?
[DR. SASHA]
Right.
[TYLER]
And it's, especially if they process, "Hey, it's not about me, but it's yet I have this spot to where I'm willing to stand here and take whatever comes my way because I'll figure out how to deal with it." And I think that is, as we evolve forward in this leadership opportunity as generationally, that's a great opportunity for people that didn't say, "Hey, let's just put our arms around each other and walk forward as opposed to holding our arms closed in an armor and thinking that's how we're going to serve people."
[DR. SASHA]
Yes. I completely agree. I love that. I love the holding yourself, the ice skating. I can just picture that now. And I think it's such a good analogy because we can see how it's so true when you're spinning and spinning and spinning and in order to stop, you got to ask for help. You got to reach out. You got to be vulnerable. You got to slow down. So I love that message, especially as an eight.
[TYLER]
Well, I mean, so as a female accomplished leader, who's looking to serve more marginalized leaders, because it isn't just female, it's all of it, and I would embrace that absolutely as well is what are the challenges that our leaders today or people that are, don't see that you're like, "Hey. Hello, this is happening over here." You talked about earlier being asked to author some papers and you're the only female on this entire panel. What are other things that you're currently experiencing or have experienced and you're saying, "Hey guys, we're not seeing this."
[DR. SASHA]
Yes. I think one of the most common things I see is something called benevolent sexism. And even I've done it. I mean, I do it. It's very common. It comes from a good place. So perfect example. You have Jenny and Jim and they're the same year out of experience, they kind of like the same thing, they're working towards the same goals and a job comes up that both of them would be great at. Jenny is six months pregnant. So what do we do as a leadership team? We come together and we're like, "You know what? We don't want to ask Jenny because she's so such a hard worker. We know she'll say yes, and we don't want to stress her out. We're just going to ask Jim."
So we remove Jenny from the occasion, from even the opportunity to say no. She may say no, but we don't even give her the option. We do it from a good place. We do it because we care about her. We value her and her family. However, what we've just done is we've created a gap. We've created a massive gap in pay, a gap in opportunity, a gap in leadership, all these things. And then we've also silently made Jenny go, "What is wrong with me? I just must need to work harder. I just need to work harder to do better because I think I would have been good at that." And now we've, the confidence, so we closed the door. So that's something very common. We all do it. I've done it and we don't, we take an opportunity from someone who maybe we think isn't up to it for whatever reason, instead of making them have that control over whatever they want to do.
Then the second thing that I think a lot of us see as women is we are not, often we are not blessed or we are not like it's not seen as a positive when we're ambitious. I mean, I think oftentimes I ask myself like, why am I so ambitious? Because I know if I was a man and I was as ambitious, I would probably be farther than I am because it's such a uncomfortable thing. Not for all men. You know, not for eights, but for some men it's just very uncomfortable to have an ambitious woman in your circle, especially an ambitious woman that is maybe doing things you're not doing. You know, I recognize that most of the men who are threatened by me are never men who are doing more than I'm doing. They're men who are like, "Why do you think you can do that? Or why are you doing that? Or, well, you're doing that because you know you can because you have a husband who works or whatever."
And I'm like, "Oh my gosh." And so I think like, I don't think men realize, like, I don't honestly think men go to work every day and go, "We're going to hold the women now." I don't think that happens. Like, come on. I think it just happens sometimes from a good intention, so benevolent sexism. I think sometimes it happens because maybe you're confused why a woman is so ambitious. Like maybe you've never been around an ambitious woman. I'm an ambitious woman. I see something and I'm like, "I'm going to get that, whatever that is, if I want it." If I want it, like you're not going to stop me.
And sometimes I have experienced backlash or just like uncomfortableness being around men. I'm okay if I'm their equal or if they're above me, but if they see me as like someone even a little above them or equal to them, and not all men just a fraction, it makes them uncomfortable. I don't want to make men uncomfortable. I want men to be like, "Hey, that's cool that you're doing that. I'm not into that, but I think it's awesome you're trying to go for this or whatever." So those are some of the things that frustrate me and that I'm trying to work on as a leader. And most, I will tell you, 95% of the time, the men in leadership, they want to know. They're like, "Oh, thank you for telling us." We want them to make that better. Sometimes it doesn't always, they don't always want to know. They get defensive or they're like, "Wait a minute. I was trying to be nice. I didn't ask Jenny because she's having a baby." I'm like, "Yes, but you just ---
[TYLER]
"You didn't ask Jenny because she's having a baby."
[DR. SASHA]
Right. So that's some of the things I think that I face, which is probably the same as in any profession. And I think we're getting, we're moving the right direction, but there's still some things.
[TYLER]
As I hear that from you, and I relate to that and kind of, I can understand that. It doesn't make it right, but you can understand that it's like, all right, how do we change that? To me it comes back to that, "Hey, let's have more decision-makers and let's get more viewpoints and then inviting people into the conversation." And I play this out in my mind. Okay, I'm in that position with you and we're looking at hiring for this between Jimmy and Jenny. And it's like, to me, there's a point of compassion to understanding, "Hey, Jenny devotes everything to her. She will pour herself out at the detriment of her family." That is her attribute. And it's like, we've all done that. I've done that. and yet, at the same point, it would be wrong as a leader not to recognize that because that's an attribute, that could be even Jimmy.
Jimmy gets this position and instead of going to his son's baseball games, he's doing everything here and then all of a sudden he's divorced and brings that whole bag. That's not healthy either. And so I look at that from a style of leadership and involvement in saying, "Hey, you know what, let's talk about this. How do you feel about this? What would this be?" And inviting into conversations. But I think that means having conversations and instead of saying, we have one spot for one person, hey, how do we make sure the job gets done best? And maybe you know what, it's Jenny and Jim doing it together where, "Hey, we create a bigger opportunity because we recognize you both have tremendous skills to add to us here." And so how does a leadership group do that?
[DR. SASHA]
Well, it's interesting because it's exactly what you just said, exactly. I was just having a conversation with our leadership team about this, that when we can't get, the conversation came up that we were having problems getting a woman to fulfill a role. We couldn't get woman after woman said no and we kept saying, we just need the right woman. And I said, "No, we need the right role. It's the role. Role is not made for someone who needs to go home and feed their children at 6:00 PM. Like this is not the role. You have to think differently. The question should be, how do we redefine the role or the position?" Maybe it's a two point FTE position. Maybe it's a position where, that needs more time outside of clinical duties in order to get the job done.
I remember I had a really good friend of mine who was a chair of a department and he kept telling me, "I have all these women in their 0.9 FTE. I can't get them to be 1.0 FTE." He goes, "But the men are at one point FTE." I said, "Well, why don't they try?" And so I met, I talked to them and they're like, "Because we get one day off, like every other day, every other week. We get two days a month and that's when we go to take our kids to the pediatrician, go to the dentist." And I sit in there like the guys don't, they don't need to do that. I said, "So here's the solution. You just make it a 1.0 FTE and you give them two office days. You give everybody two office days a month."
[TYLER]
I would challenge that to say in our society though, is men do need that because the expectation shouldn't be, oh, just because they're a man, they don't have that responsibility at home. As a dad, if I'm not showing up and being a dad to my kids that they're having, then they have issues. And so again, I think it comes from, instead of expecting, well, men have done this. That's what women should do. It's like, "Oh, why should men do that?"
[DR. SASHA]
Right. And why don't you just fix the whole problem by giving everybody two non-clinical days off a month? Everybody would be happy. The men will be happy, the women will be happy. Like just that and guess what? All these women will go back to full time. So I think we have to think differently about how, what we expect this job to be. We're so ingrained in, like, this is what a 1.0 FTE person is. They clock in at this time and clock out at that time. And there's a lot of kind of research coming up that the hours, 50 hours or 70 hours a week, you actually don't get more out of your employees that work. And so I think that having that work flexibility and work schedule flexibility and all these things is really smart. And that's what I love about you having such an open mind in this and saying like, why is it not both Jim and Jenny, maybe the physician? We need more leaders to think that way.
[TYLER]
Yes. I think if I look back the last year is teaching a lot of people that, and the ones that embrace it will be better off for our entire leadership of society if we embrace it as opposed to how soon can we get back to normal, how soon can we get back to what it was in 2019? Take the chance to learn from 2020 and evolve forward. And I think what's going to happen is the leadership that shows up and grows instead of wants to retract, will invite more high qualified people and those businesses will thrive. And that's what I love to see, being able to make an impact that way to say, "Hey, we all can get better. We can all get healthier as leaders if we embrace and just open our arms."
[DR. SASHA]
I love that. That's an awesome thought. I love the open arms. I mean, it's just such a good analogy.
[TYLER]
Well, that was completely, there was nothing there other than just a fun conversation. Who knew we would end up talking about Jimmy and Jenny about this job? And yes, we just solved a piece of the world's problems in our own little world. And man, thank you, Sasha for lending us your time.
[DR. SASHA]
Thank you for having me on and for asking a woman leader to come on and share what it's her real life journey of what it's like to be a leader and the struggles and the highs and the lows and the wins. And I just appreciate your openness to have me on. It was great.
[TYLER]
Absolutely. I mean, you add tremendous value and keep doing it and don't let anyone put an umbrella over your life. So thank you.
[DR. SASHA]
Thank you.
[TYLER]
Okay. I hope you had fun with that. I seriously had so much fun. I felt like I, one, I love these interviews. I try to build a friendship with people. I'm looking to grow as a leader and one of the things I've realized is connecting with people, learning about people, trying to just find out what makes people tick. To me I really think that's what helps you become a better leader. I truly and absolutely do. And I hope you're seeing that kind of pick up your, I also like to learn from a lot of different people, different industries so that way I can relate more with others. I really hope those are the elements here that, you know as my mission, my purpose, my desire is help other leaders get healthy too. I had to get healthy.
I put a preference forward on my physical health, my nutrition, that stuff. I've also put a pension forward to growing with interaction, my spiritual health, my emotional health. That is important to becoming a great leader. I believe this, that if you stick around, you're going to listen to people. You're going to learn from people and you are going to get healthier too. But it can't just be something you just let happen to you. Be intentional about it.
If nutrition, if sleep, if those things are a struggle for you, get a handle on them, because that's a part of being a better leader. If your emotions, the ups and downs, if you find yourself angry and upset and frustrated, that's an area to work on. Spiritual relationships, where are you there? To me that's a big part of it. I share my faith, but you know what, find out what works for you. I love to talk to you about that, but then again, that's going to be on your terms.
So, that's all stuff that we do in the book club. That's all stuff that we do in the round table to a greater extent where we meet once a week on Zoom, talk and share life's learning lessons as leaders. I invite you to be a part of that. I'd love for you to be of it. Thank for listening into this episode and have a great rest of your day. Will see you next time.
