IDL22 Season 1: It's Always About People with Chris Allen

What is the connection between culture and sport? How is being a coach similar to being a modern-day shepherd? Can current leaders be the bridge between the previous and upcoming generations that are within the workforce?

Chris Allen talks about how it’s not about what you created or bought, it will be about the impact you’ve had on the people around you. We need to understand that when we become healthier as leaders when we understand how serving and empowering people can make a business thrive, we also begin to understand the tremendous contribution we can make in the world.

Meet Chris Allen

Chris grew up in the Chicago area, but has called Charlotte home since 2000.

With 20 years of experience in rapidly growing organizations, Chris has developed an ability to build culture and develop leaders. Chris has been a part of scaling multiple organizations. He spent time in a leadership role at Elevation Church and in 2015, he joined Movement Mortgage as their Chief Talent Officer as it exploded from sixteen hundred to over four thousand employees.  

Over the past couple of years, Chris has established a vibrant consulting and coaching practice where he is utilizing his experience to help organizations build culture and develop people.

Visit his website and connect with Chris on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn.

In this episode we discuss:

• Culture and sport

• Coach as a modern-day shepherd

• Maslow’s hierarchy of needs and modern society

CULTURE AND SPORT

As much as everyone enjoys a great player and a great team that wins effortlessly, there is some real human grit in rooting for the ones at the bottom who strive for the top.

“There’s something about all of us that loves the underdog, loves the story of a team of a bunch of misfits … every great sports movie is that story of that overcoming … it’s that whole concept of saying “man, we love it when we can pull a bunch of people together and make something great happen”. ”

— Chris Allen

It is all about people. When you want to create a strong bond between a group of people, have them root for one another and have them be in a team together where it is important for the sake of the business or sport that they work together.

As much as people love an underdog, some of the best teams and groups of people working together are made by those that lift one another up, instead of pulling one another down to be the first one. It is in working together, with everyone’s strengths and weaknesses, that the highest heights are achieved.

“The way to make a team effective is to take the guy who is the lowest in the ranking … whatever that means and make him or her feel like they’re as much a part of that team as anybody”

— Chris Allen

COACH AS A MODERN-DAY SHEPHERD

“When you think about a coach, a coach is somebody [who] knows that they have individuals for a season, not forever, a season, and [they know] the goal is [to] get the most out of each individual for the betterment of the team, we have our best chance of winning.”

— Chris Allen

The coach as a modern-day shepherd works as well as a business leader, a company owner, with a team under them that they guide.

The team acts the best as a whole when each individual person is included, supported, and encouraged, instead of focusing on a handful of players and leaving the rest behind.

When the coach, the leader, mistreats a team or a group of employees, they may feel resentful and insecure when that employee decides to leave. However, when the leader focuses on each employee, each team member, and understands that they have their own journey as well as being a part of a team, they are not spiteful when that person decides to go their own way.

“If you were a coach, you would expect that they’d leave, so you should just expect that they’re going to leave. [Instead, ask yourself] what can I do to make them the best possible person while I have them and then celebrate them to moving on[to] what’s next?”

— Chris Allen

The way a leader and a business owner speaks about an employee or team member when they decide to leave says a lot about who they are as a person, let alone a business owner.

MASLOW’S HIERARCHY OF NEEDS AND MODERN SOCIETY

5 – Physiological: air, water, food

4 – Safety: shelter and employment

3 – Emotional connection: Love and belonging

2 – Mental foundation: Self esteem

1 – Becoming the authentic version of yourself: Self-actualization

In modern-day society, most people find almost all of their connection, security, safety, emotional connection, and self-improvement within the work that they do. This has changed over time from work in previous decades, where work was mostly – and only – for the purpose of earning an income.

However, our experience of work has now changed, developed, and become more closely knit.

“We are the bridge between these generations … it is how healthy we become as leaders [and how it will] equate to our effectiveness in what we’re able to do as part of a purpose with people.”

— Tyler Dickerhoof

Resources, books, and links mentioned in this episode:

Visit his website and connect with Chris on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn.

The Impact Driven Leader YouTube Channel

Join the Impact Driven Leader Community

Connect with Tyler on Instagram and LinkedIn

About the Impact Driven Leader Podcast

The Impact Driven Leader Podcast, hosted by Tyler Dickerhoof, is for Xillennial leaders who have felt alone and ill-equipped to lead in today's world. Through inspiring interviews with authors from around the world, Tyler uncovers how unique leadership strengths can empower others to achieve so much more, with real impact.

Rate, review and subscribe here on Apple Podcasts or subscribe on Stitcher and Spotify.

The way to make a team effective is to take the guy who is the lowest in the ranking … whatever that means and make him or her feel like they’re as much a part of that team as anybody.

Chris Allen

Podcast Transcription

[TYLER DICKERHOOF] As you know, as you've heard, part of this podcast is also doing the Impact Driven Leader round table. I want you to listen to this quick message from Josh, who's part of the Impact Driven Leader round table, the value that he's gotten out of it. And this is an invitation. I want you to come sit at our table. You're going to learn, you're going to grow and you can't help, but have a great time with us. So thank you to Josh for being a part of the round table. And I invite you. You're listening. There's a seat for you with your name on it. Come join us. [JOSH] Hey, Tyler. Josh here. Hey, I just want to take a quick second and thank you for all you're doing with the Impact Driven Leader, in particular book club round table. And when I first was thinking about starting the round table, I was looking at reading one book a month, and this was in addition to, I'm a big reader. In addition to the other books, I would be reading plus a busy career, a really busy family. And I thought, man, I just don't know if I can do that. But sometimes in life you think, I just need to go for it. And I made this decision to go for it. I'll tell you what, I haven't regretted a single second. I've been able to keep up. It has really pushed me and challenged me to do that and often in life, we think we can't and yet we don't even know our limits. I've been able to keep up. The conversations have been incredible. In fact, not just the books, but the conversations that we've had at the round table have really impacted me, impacted my thoughts, impacted my actions and therefore impacted my business and the people around me. And I've got a ton of value out of. It's been very worth the time, worth every minute, and I would do it again if I could. I would certainly encourage anybody who wants to grow in leadership, be connected to people from various industries across the nation to get involved and get going. [TYLER] Welcome to the Impact Driven Leader podcast. This is your host, Tyler Dickerhoof. If you guys are back for another episode, I'm glad you're here. This is your first episode? Thanks for listening in. I truly hope you get value today, and I know today's guest is really going to bring it, one because I loved the conversation with him. A little background, how Chris and I got introduced, we were introduced by a mutual friend, Mike Brennan, who is at Movement Mortgage. Mike reached out to me and said, Tyler, I got to introduce you to Chris. You guys just have so much in common. I know you're going to love each other. So we didn't really have a chance to chat and connect and finally did. And I said, Chris, why don't you come onto my podcast? I'd love for you to share what you've done at Movement Mortgage, at Elevation Church at all your different spots, and now at Always About People. That's the organization that he leads really with that purpose and drive to explain to organizations it's always about people. So we had a great conversation digging into where that came from, his experience as a tremendous college athlete, jumping into professional soccer, and we really connected on that as my passion for soccer and coaching soccer. And again, all of these different relations that we didn't realize we had, but how a good friend of ours saw those. And I am grateful for the conversation I had with Chris. I'm grateful for people like him in my life. And that really is what the Impact Driven Leader community is about, helping people in your life that are focused on similar values, similar directives. And for me, it's this purpose of helping other leaders get healthy too. You know, I love how Chris shared about this desire to really take all these different pieces, mash them together and come from that too, to realize it's about culture. And I truly believe the best leadership is about creating a culture that is empowering, is really creates a community where people want to achieve the best that they can. It's not this antagonistic, you know, I'm going to hold you down. I'm going to shame you. I'm going to beat you into submission that a lot of times leadership has been. I don't agree with that and Chris and I talk about it and unpack all of those things. You're going to hear from a guy who has tremendous heart to serve, to lead, to help people. So enjoy this episode, I'll catch you at the end. [TYLER] So you said you had some questions. I'd love to know what, obviously what did Mike, what has Mike told you about me? You know, he's connected us and I'd love to know that. [CHRIS ALLEN] It's probably about the same thing he's told you, which is you need to know this guy, that's it. You have so much in common and so I'm curious about what all those commonalities are. [TYLER] Well, I think I, yes, soccer. [CHRIS] Ooh, well this one. [TYLER] Oh yes, yes. I'm like, so put it this, what team do you cheer for in the Premier League? [CHRIS] Ooh, in the Premier League? Let's see. I right now, gosh, I'm just going to answer it truthfully. I don't cheer a team. [TYLER] Okay. [CHRIS] I don't have a team because for me I'm so competitive that I just want to see a really good game. Kind of like my same answer to college basketball. I live in North Carolina, but to be honest with you, I don't care about Carolina or do --- [TYLER] That's fine. You're not a native Carolina, so -- [CHRIS] But college football, when I tell people that I grew up in Chicago and the only thing we watched on TV was NBC, therefore Notre Dame, but I have no connection to Notre Dame, no reason to like them, except they were better than Northwestern, Illinois. [TYLER] That doesn't take much. [CHRIS] And there's no way we were going to root for Wisconsin. So that's the only reason. [TYLER] I can go with that. I can jump off there. So yes, Man City, for one reason what is it, I don't know if it's called all access. I think it's all access on Amazon. I watched the Man City all access program probably three years ago and I was like, I admire Pep Guardiola tremendously because of his leadership style. [CHRIS] Oh yes. [TYLER] That's why I became a Man City fan. And growing up, playing soccer we never, we didn't even know that Premier League existed. I mean, I heard people talk about, could never watch anything, never do anything, so I was never into it and only in the last couple of years now have been watching that, now you can watch every Premier League game you want on TV, whereas 10 years ago, you couldn't in the US. So I have become a Man City fan and it is again, just from a leadership perspective, it's Pep. [CHRIS] Yes. So I love watching leadership through the eyes of coaching as well. But I think growing up, I had the same experience and so the only soccer that we got to watch was when a major broadcast actually played an NCAA final or the world cup. I recorded most of the world cup in Spanish because they were the only ones showing the sport, the world's greatest event. [TYLER] So is this pre 94, because I know we're the same age. So was this, were you watching like pre 94 world cup? [CHRIS] Yes. 1990 world cup. I have VHS recordings of most of the semi-finals and finals. I think my parents finally gave me the box and I found VHS tapes of the 1990 world cup when we went into PKS. Okay. Sound old recordings of the NCAA men's soccer finals. Of course there were some old VHS tapes of myself playing, but we won't talk about that, but that was the only way to watch soccer. [TYLER] Yes. I mean, to me watching soccer, I mean, I grew up, I started playing when I was kindergarten, first grade. And so in the Midwest that was like early, you were like, what is this sport, like especially small rural town in Ohio, it wasn't like it was massively popular and start playing. So I remember really watching the 94 world cup and I was a midfielder and I fell in love with John Harkes. So through sports, I wanted to wear a number six and my son, who's 13, now, he was the soccer player in our family, he wears number six. And it is all because, and I was telling him the other day, "You know why I like number six?" And he goes, "I don't know." It's like he got it. It was first and I was coaching him. Like, I'll give him number six. So I told him it was because of John Harkes. [CHRIS] Very cool. Okay, so 1994 world cup was in Chicago, one of the locations and I lived in Naperville, Illinois at the time. I was going to Naperville North High School and the Spanish team was training down the street at Illinois Benedictine College. It was two miles from my house, so I would go and sneak over there and kind of sneak past some guards to watch through the fence at the Spanish team doing the training. I sat a couple of rows back on the end zone at soldier field for Spain, Germany and those were just really, really fun. Then I was in France for the 2008 World Cup. I won't talk about getting stuck in the Tunisian English riot. [TYLER] That's not good. [CHRIS] We were, I was actually over there with athletes in action. I want to go back to Ohio, where in Ohio did you grow? [TYLER] So Northeast halfway between Cleveland and Columbus. So a little town called Wooster, that is where I grew up. [CHRIS] Did you play for a local club or a larger club in Ohio? [TYLER] No, I just played at that point, I remember there was one club, but I played rec, I grew up on a farm. So for me to be able to play soccer, it was just kind of, I played rec but played into high school and I kicked myself because I should have tried out at least when I went to Cornell. I don't think I ever would have been, I was never a technical player, but I could see the field and I had sights. At that point by senior in high school, I was five eleven, a hundred and sixty five hundred seventy five pounds playing midfield. And so I played physical, that's the ability that I had is if you are going to move the ball through the midfield, you were going to pay for it. And that's my ability, what I had, and again, I kicked myself for not at least trying but I don't know if I would have ever made it. [CHRIS] So the so I was a center back and I played pretty much the same way. I did not have a whole lot of skill, but nobody was going to outwork me. If you tried to get past me, I was just going to take you down. But yes, I grew up in the Chicago suburbs played for a pretty big club in Chicago, it was called Pegasus at the time and I was, I was curious because one of the guys I played with, oh, I think went to Cornell. [TYLER] Oh really? [CHRIS] He was from Rockford, Illinois. I'm trying to put together a name, but anyway --- [TYLER] We would have been there at the same time, because I was looking at, you graduated high school in 96, I graduated in 97, so I graduated Cornell in 2001. [CHRIS] Okay. Yes. So anyway, I'll come back to that one, but very cool. So how'd you end up at Cornell? [TYLER] I got recruited for dairy cattle evaluation. [CHRIS] From the farm? [TYLER] Yes. So I grew up, I was in 4H FFA showing cows doing those things, but I also, they have a contest where you evaluate animals. So I had won the state 4h contest, state FFA contest, did a lot of it nationally around. So Cornell has an animal science department as it's a land grant college and so I was recruited to go to Cornell for that. We ended up winning the national contest when I was a junior, contest they held for that and then as a senior won the national contest as well. So yes, it is one of those things that as it is, it is an accomplishment that really in the grand scheme of things doesn't mean a whole lot in the world, but yes. [CHRIS] Isn't that Tyler, that most things? [TYLER] I would say yes, it really, it can be. [CHRIS] So whether it's cows or soccer in the end, it's really not that big of a deal. So the only reason that I didn't respond sarcastically is because my wife grew up in Wisconsin. [TYLER] Oh, okay. [CHRIS] Both of her parents grew up on farms that were dairy farms and her uncles are still milking cows. So come on, dude. I'm like, yes, whatever that's normal. [TYLER] Yes, yes. No, it's one of those things coming to grips with, each of our abnormal is really normal if we just accept it as normal that each of us have a wildly different, you know how do we get here to where we are? And I think that's aging. I mean, that's, as you get into your forties, you don't really care as much. I think that's a great virtue of gaining wisdom and learning and for me, hey, I wouldn't trade those experiences at all. You know, I look at the, when I think about speaking and people are like, "Oh, Tyler, you're pretty articulate. You're able to speak." I'm like, "Well, I started doing it when I was eight." And I started doing it probably, I had a lady one time, I was speaking at an event and I don't know how many, there might've been 12,000 or 15,000 there. I can't remember how much it was and she was so nervous and she's like, 'Are you nervous?" I'm like, "No, not really." And she goes, "Why not?" I said, "Because it's a lot easier to talk to 12,000 than it is one. When you're talking to one and they're sitting there and they're drilling holes in the back of their head with your eyes, that's a lonely place to be." I said, "That is no fun. Give me tons of people and you can look around a crowd and somebody is going to be smiling and just keep with that and just keep looking for the people smiling." And it's when you're talking to one, which I did all the way from eight up until a senior of college, because part of our contest was you had to give reasons for why you placed animals the way you did. And so you were talking to one person and you'd have to do this six or seven, six times as part of the contest each time. You talk about being nervous is you're trying to justify why you did something across the table, from someone who thinks that you could be an absolute idiot because why did you see it that way? [CHRIS] Well, that's cool. I mean, we started on soccer, then we went to cows and now we're on to speaking. So people ask me the same question and I tell them when you spend 10,000 hours on any stage, you better become better at speaking. So I'm so thankful for the time that I spent at Elevation Church. And nothing like time after time after repetition, after repetition to refine your skills and abilities and then put a clock in the back and hit zeros and that'll refine it even further. [TYLER] Yes, totally, totally. It's like, oh it was funny, and I got into this habit when I presented and people would get so nervous. And again, I wasn't doing weekly. It was just events here and there and it's like, no I'm pretty sure my role is to make sure this event keeps moving along. So I will aim to leave two or three minutes there on the clock. That will be my goal. And so people backstage, they'd be freaking out. I'm like, "No, it's all good." I'll watch that and make sure we get to that point to where there's some time left on the clock because I don't want to be that guy that just is rambling on, rambling on, rambling on. No, it's like, come on, get to the point. Let's go. [CHRIS] Yes. Actually, what I learned is that if somebody gives you a clock, it's a matter of honor to honor it. If somebody asks you to come and speak, you are on their time with what they give you. [TYLER] Yes. So I know what I've picked up. So went to Wheaton, light soccer at Wheaton, had an opportunity to go to IU, which was a powerhouse in the late nineties, early two thousands, decided not to, so that's what I gathered, and then end up in Charlotte because of soccer too, right? [CHRIS] Correct. So how, what where'd you go to get the information from? [TYLER] I have this mentor that has really impressed upon me the value of preparation. One of his mentees is also another friend who I was just recording a podcast with, he impressed upon me that much as well. So it is the value to be able to go and investigate and listen to other podcasts and don't repeat the same thing, but learn about people. So I went, investigated and that's what I learned about Chris. So yes, John has impressed that upon me, and then the guy I was referring to is Don Jaeger who, I don't know if you know Don, great guy. Former sports illustrated editor, author has a phenomenal podcast called the Corporate Competitor Podcast and that's one of the things that Don and I have talked about. And as he said to me, even again, this morning, it's like Tyler, your preparation, our conversations and our relationship are the things that open up doors. [CHRIS] So yes, that is all true. I grew up on soccer. I'm a pastor's kid from the Chicago area. My dad was on staff at a church called Wheaton Bible Church and then Naperville, at Naperville Evangelical Covenant Church. So I did my middle school and high school years in the public schools in Naperville and had just a really cool opportunity to develop my abilities and then just be seen. And I learned a lot about life my senior year in high school when I tore cartilage in my knee and refused to give up. So I went to the doctor for that. Well, I just said to the doctor --- [TYLER] How did you tear the cartilage? [CHRIS] Just in a game, in a cut. I mean, realized I couldn't walk the next day and the doctor was basically like, "Look, you're not going to do any more damage. So it's just a matter of you handling the pain." And I so desperately wanted to play my senior year. So the funny story is I had a few different opportunities to play at schools, but I get a call from Jerry Yeagley, who was the head coach at Indiana kind of late in my senior year and he said, "Well Chris, we've heard a lot of incredible things about you and some of my former players have seen you play." I was trying to figure out like how does a coach of a D one program find players? And I was just more curious than anything and he just said, "Well the players who have played for me, I trust their opinion the most. So I don't care about what people say. I don't care about the videos people send in. I don't read all the letters, but when I have a former player call and say, you need to check this guy out, I don't even check them out. I just call." So I got a call and flew down to Bloomington and set. I mean the best part about the trip was sitting front row for, well, I was actually, it was in John Mellencamp seats, assembly hall, for the Michigan Indiana basketball game when Tractor Traylor was playing for Michigan. That was just a really, really fun experience. And again, Jerry Yeagley and Joe Bean, who was the Wheaton college coach, they were like the two winningest coaches in NCAA at the time. And they knew each other. So they actually, when I finally decided to go to Wheaton, they called each other and congratulated one another for this kid named Chris Allen. Dad got ahold of my life, my senior year in high school and I knew it was where I was supposed to be and he honored that decision. My time at Wheaton was incredible. It's set me up for what I'm doing now in life and met my wife there. At Wheaton I was in two national championships, we went 66 games on beaten, and I lost like less than 10 games in my entire four years. So it was just a fun, really, really fun experience and I would do it all over again. So yes that's my Wheaton story. [TYLER] How much of what you learned at Wheaton really created this foundation of understanding how important culture is? [CHRIS] So I went to Wheaton thinking that I was going to be a youth pastor because again, got a grip on my life, my senior year in high school. So I started out majoring in Christian education, and I had a couple of incredible professors there that just mentored me and took me under, and soccer was one part of that leadership. The culture of the Wheaton soccer team and then the culture at Wheaton college is really what got me thinking about this. But I realized when I took my first business course that there was a part of me that God had wired, that couldn't be fulfilled just in Christian education. So I was trying to figure out how I could get all my classes done in time while playing soccer while graduating early, because there was a possibility that I'd be drafted into the newly formed MLS at the time. And I went to sort of one of the deans and said, how can I pull this off? And they said, Well, we don't have a business minor, so you'd have to double major, but I don't think you have enough time to do that. But we do have one other option called interdisciplinary studies." And I said, "Well, tell me more. At Wheaton, they basically have a program where if you can prove the validity, you can combine different studies or courses into a single major. And so I graduated formally with an interdisciplinary studies major, but it's a combination of Christian ed, business and a couple of classes in kinesiology and I called it like Christian sports ministry, but really what it was, for me was a combination of business and Christian ministry. So I pretty quickly realized there's a piece that's missing in our churches, in our Christian organizations and it feels like it's this understanding of business. But then in the business world, I feel like we're missing a part of what we see inside churches and Christian organizations and our understanding and love for people. So could you bring these two together and create a healthy culture where you have the best of both worlds? The other part of my story is that my dad was a pastor and my uncle was a successful attorney. And so I had pastor, and then my uncle had three daughters, so I was like a son to him as well. Uncle, uncle Dave was the attorney, Paul Allen was the pastor, and then I became 50/50 split. And that's where the love and the passion for culture came in. And I don't think I realized that I had a gift in this area until I got to the Charlotte Eagles down here in Charlotte, where I live now. But I spent the preseason with the Chicago fire. They didn't keep me, came to Charlotte, which was like the AAA baseball of the soccer world at the time called the A League and we just, we stayed here. So that's where it all began, culture wise. [TYLER] Yes, well, I mean, I think what's awesome is that when you wouldn't, I think the greatest display of culture in our society is in sports and the reason why it's the greatest display is because it's the most visible and studied the outcome. You know, we can look at business PNL and we don't see that publicly. We see a sports record, a team record publicly. And so the bearing of the teamwork, the culture, the environment, those old things, and especially over time, you know for you to go 66 and 10 during your college career, that is a massive display of culture that progresses over time and has success. And so when you see teams that do that, you see organizations that continually grow and as I recognize what I see in the places that you've been that have amazing culture it only goes to again, create that major foundation of importance to all outcome. [CHRIS] I completely agree. And I think that while you can see the record and you see the measurement sort of publicly, what you don't always see is the behind the scenes. So assumptions can be made. And actually that's a whole ‘nother conversation. We can get into the perceptions of culture but the healthy cultures you see almost over performance, you see people exceed beyond expectations. And we can have expectations of a great team or a great player, and we can think they're going to win, but there's something about all of us that loves the underdog, loves the story of the team of a bunch of misfits or the team of underachievers --- [TYLER] The bad news bearers, yes. [CHRIS] And every great sports movie Hoosiers, is that story of that overcoming. And it's because, I mean, it's that whole concept of saying, man, we love it when you can pull a bunch of people together and make something great happen. And Tyler, I think the other part that I may be left out is I watched my dad as an associate pastor, his entire career. I've never heard a bad thing said about my dad. So many people love how he cared for them, loved them well, and I watched the culture that my dad established organization after organization. And when something would fall apart in a church culture, which it always does, my dad was left there holding the pieces together, and then when a new leader would come in, my dad would move on to the next experience. So I think part of my cultural experience, even before Wheaton was just watching my dad. And what was instilled in me was this is still about people and on a soccer team, the way to make a team effective is to take the guy who's the lowest in the ranking, whatever that means and make him or her feel like they are as much a part of that team as anybody, because the moment you separate out and create a hierarchy on the team you lose the ability to encourage people and develop people, bring people along. And it's often the person that you least expect who ends up having the greatest impact on a winning season, a winning team. And that has just always been a part of kind of culture for me. And then to also think about the role of a coach in culture. Biblically, I think a coach is our modern day shepherd. And so when you think about a coach, a coach is somebody, who they know that they have individuals for a season, not forever, a season. And the goal is if I can get the most out of each individual for the betterment of the team, we have our best chance of winning. And I think we lose perspective in leadership in general, when we think, oh, well, I'll have these people forever and if I can just make a couple individuals better, we'll be effective. And then we all get upset and insecure when somebody decides to leave. And it's like, "Hey, wait a minute. If you were a coach, you would expect that they'd leave. So we should just expect that they're going to leave." What can I do to make them the best possible person while I have them and then celebrate them moving on to what's next? So I think coach in the context of team is a incredible example of leadership in culture. Well, it's so much healthier. I mean, you established, to just pin on that last point about the, when you realize you have these people for a season and you're there today say, "Hey, what can we accomplish in this season? And I'm going to welcome you in when you come and I'm going to cheer you on when you go knowing that a part of each of our growth means that we're going to have to separate and we may come back at some point in time, whatever that may be." But if there's an angst, if there's tension, well, then you've not only created a situation with that relationship. You have inadvertently affected every other relationship because people see that. If somebody leaves and you tear them down or you make comments or whatever, "Oh, they're leaving. They're not going to have success. They're not going to have that," well, then everyone else sits around saying, "All right. Oh, what happens when I move on? What are they going to say about me? Or now all of a sudden, how secure do I feel in my role? What am I contributing to the team? Am I, I know that guy was an amazing performer, whatever sport business, whatever it may be and I view that of them. Well, what is he the coach or the business leader, think of me then?" And we start making up all these stories. I know the John [inaudible 00:34:05] recent books soundtracks, and then all of a sudden they start really creating this like toxic environment, as opposed to when you're embracive and saying, "Hey, people are going to come and go, and we're going to create this community, as I like to call it an incubator community, rather than an incinerator community, then all of a sudden we're going to get the best of everyone. [CHRIS] Absolutely. And I think what people miss is that if I create a culture like that, all these people who were developed and who grew and who had a great experience, move on to what's next and talk about what they came from, which just continues to make the culture that they came from even more effective and it attracts more people to it. So the ability to take talent, and I think I would say this about Wheaton college and you, I mean, you can talk about other schools too, but it's like, what Wheaton has done is created a culture and even from a soccer standpoint, where all of us have left and gone on to other things. And I don't remember the scores of games. I don't remember much of anything. I probably have too many headers, but what I do remember is the feeling of being a part of that team and that I don't think I could have gotten that many other places. And that's what a great culture does. Is it leaves you kind of going, man, I wish I could have that again and how can I create that where I am now. And I saw a great culture replicates itself through people as they leave and go to other places. And what an honor, when you can point to somebody and say, they spent time in our culture and look what they're doing now. That's more honoring than, "Hey, look, I've kept 100% of the people who started here and we're all getting old together." You know, like that, doesn't count. [TYLER] That's either from a leadership perspective, that's not only good, but it's also bad. You know, I look at that again, it's like, hey, if people grow outside of the walls of whatever organization I have, that's great because then I helped grow them to somewhere else to where they're going to be able to accomplish. But then also brings in the opportunity for someone else to grow in that are going to bring different experiences and different ideas. And then that's how you grow. And instead of putting walls around, well, we're just going to stay very static, very status quo, which is just being in the mess we're in. Well, all of a sudden the abnormal start to become normal and you're not challenging yourself to say, oh, is there a better way to do it? Can we serve people in a more dynamic way? And I think that again comes into the leadership challenge of being the bridge between generations. Because if we try to operate as leaders, how it's been done every day before you and I started, you know it's been modeled, if we try to apply that to everyone that is younger than us, to me, we're going to do a disservice because they've experienced different situations and they have different skillsets and different opportunities that really need to be led differently. [CHRIS] Yes. I mean, if I start to go into that, that's a whole ‘nother conversation. You tell me if you want to go there. [TYLER] Yes, let's do it. I mean, at this point, it's, hey, we're having a great conversation. And to me, that's where I learn the most, so let's roll with it. [CHRIS] First of all I was with a company yesterday and one of the comments that came up was the millennials. I'm thinking the millennials? The millennials are 40. So if we're still talking about millennials, we missed a generation. Gen Z hit the workplace last year, because technically 1998 and on is gen Z. I'm still waiting on what they're going to call the next generation. But we've got millennials and Z, I just prefer to call them next gen, because technically you, I are the end of gen X, but mentally I really want to be a millennial. [TYLER] To me, we're in that cusp of, we are, the Xenial, is what I call it. [CHRIS] Have you heard what else they call us? [TYLER] No, but I'm smiling because I've got to laugh. [CHRIS] We are called the Oregon trail generation. [TYLER] Because we played Oregon trail? [CHRIS] Uh-uh. [TYLER] Oh yes. [CHRIS] And the green blinking thing, but we were that we were in that category of, as technology moved, I mean, we were in college when the internet came. I started college with an eight megabyte gateway laptop, and I finished college with the Ethernet and it was like, what is this? Dial up internet at the beginning of college and all of a sudden you've got wired dorm rooms by junior year. Then we come out of college and we've got cell phones, they're flip at the time, and then as we enter the workforce, we're moving into Blackberries and then obviously, 06, 07, we moved to the iPhone and the generation. But now we have an entire generation that's grown up with technology and yet they want the same things. So Tyler, one of the things that I've been really studying and it's a bit controversial because it's a secular model, but if I just take a scientific, secular model, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and we just apply it to what people are looking for today, the most basic need is physiological; air, water, food. Then the second need is safety, which is shelter and employment, your job is considered a second level need. The third level is love and belonging. The fourth level is self-esteem and his top level of the pyramid is called, self-actualization, becoming the best version of yourself, which I think is funny anyway. But when you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs for generations, past employment has been a second level need. It was a job and I'm going to find a love and belonging, self-esteem and self-actualization through other things, my family, my church, organizations in the community, whatever else. We now have generations, and I'm not going to talk about one, I'm just going to talk next gen, where the family been splintered, people don't go to church anymore, and they're trying to find those other needs some other way. So people still have a need for love and belonging, they still have a need for improving self-esteem and they still have a need for becoming who God created them to be. And they're trying to find it in the workplace now because I'm not going to find it at home in my family, half of them are broken. I'm not really going to find it at church anymore because even the healthy churches don't really do a great job of it. So I spend more waking hours in my workplace. I want to feel like I'm loved and I belong to something, purpose driven organizations. I want to feel like I'm improving my self esteem, development, leadership development, coaching, and I want to become the best version of myself, self-actualization. So now you have a generation that's saying, this is what I want in the workplace and you have previous generations who are calling them entitled, but they all want the same thing. It's just the previous generations didn't even know you could ask for that in the workplace. [TYLER] Well, I think what's funny is I've gone down this path a little bit myself and looked at some of the generations and we established and we look at it just like, right now we have this older generation. We call it the baby boomers in the workforce that are having this commentary about the millennial gen Z. However, when the baby boomers were first into the workforce, the generations, 40 to 60 years older than them were saying the exact same things. That's been documented. You look back at the transcripts and the books, and it was the same thing. It's the same generational evolution and it's not new. It's just all of a sudden our experiences are different and therefore we evaluate and rank differently because you know what, in the 19 hundreds, someone who was very, very, very rich had in the 1950s that was table stakes. And so what people in the 1950s really aspired for by the 1980s that was table stakes. And so it's this new just changing of generation, but yet we're all looking for the same things. One piece that really, I think you, it's what causes our society to be polarizing is this definition of community. You know, to me, we've had these tensions and issues in workplace, in society and wherever else, because what we assumed as values are not transcending because of different backgrounds and in different country of origin, whatever else. So there's a book by Jason Dorsey, Z Economy, and he talks about it, is 15-year-olds in the United States and different countries around the world have more in common today than a 15-year-old and a 50-year-old in the same house because of just our world is flat. Our experiences are so much different than when you and I were 15, where we did have more in common with people of our own country that were 15 than we did people in other parts of the world, because we didn't have the internet. We didn't have the technology where there's equalization across cultures. And as equalization across cultures. And as I've learned through that and try to grow through that and see, this is my great belief is you and I are prime example, we are the same age. We are the bridge between these generations that you bring up. And it's how healthy we become as leaders will affect, will equate to our effectiveness and what we're able to do as part of a purpose with people. [CHRIS] Okay, so let's see if we can bridge some of what we've been talking about. If you take the concept of a coach and a team and the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the leader that can bridge the gap is a leader who says, I know what people need. They need more than just physiological needs and safety. They need to feel like they are loved, valued, and belong to something. They need to feel like people believe in them and they're growing in self-esteem and they need to feel like they're being developed into who God created them to be, or in secular terms, the best version of themselves. And so the leaders who can bridge the gap are the people who will come alongside people, make them feel like they belong to something great, they're valued in the process. They are learning and feeling better about themselves and their strengths and they're becoming a better version of themselves. Those are the leaders who will bridge the gap, and yet most of the leadership, and again, obviously our friend, John talks all about valuing people, but still, it's always about people. It's always about people. [TYLER] Well it's, so to me, what I would say you described is a healthy, empathetic leader. The people that lead, that do what you just said, there are a person that's healthy, meaning they come to grips with themselves, their own insecurities, their own fallibilities, and they can accept that and understand, "Hey, there's a place for it. It's okay. If those are dangerous, if they're causing harm, then I'm going to work on those. But hey, I have insecurities. You have insecurities. Everyone listening to this has an insecurity. It's okay. We all do." And when we can accept those and say, "Chris, you make me better because what you bring to the table plus with what I bring to the table, cancels out our insecurities. If we look around at teams and understanding that to me, that is a practice of empathy of saying, we can do that. Exactly what you said, those leaders are what I call empathetic. And I think empathy is very, very misunderstood. Just like humility is very, very misunderstood. And that's where I believe this process of getting healthy is, is learning about that empathy, learning to care more about what's important for that person who is doing a role in your business because they're not just a person doing a role in a business. They may be a mother, a sister, a daughter, they're all those other things that come into that whole hierarchy of needs in life. And if I only worry about, are they going to show up to work, are they going to do what I tell them, and are they going to be here tomorrow, if that's all I worry about, then we're lost. [CHRIS] Yep. S if I could, let me just say, this is the framework of how I believe culture's established in organizations and it starts with the individual. I call it individual clarity. It's a person coming to an understanding of their strengths, a person understanding what replenishes them, understanding their weaknesses, their insecurities, their belief systems, attitudes, and habits. Because if I can make those healthy or at least aware of those that affects my leadership clarity, which vertical relationship it affects my horizontal relationship, which are all the relationships that I'm healthy with. So how do I resolve conflict? How do I collaborate effectively? How do we aim for something bigger together? And then that affects organizational clarity. An organizational clarity is like, Hey, what's the mission, vision values? What's the structure? Where do I fit? What's my role? How do I win every day? What's the process around here? What's the communication? How do I find out what's going on? And what's the brand clarity? Like, are we who we really say we are? So Tyler, like, this is my work with organizations, establishing clarity from individual to leadership to relational to organizational. And that's what I do, man. [TYLER] I'm excited about it. That's why, when I think about our friend that connected us and realize you guys want to see the world a lot and have a lot in common, and that's what he told both of us. I think we're establishing and seeing that. I also see from your experience and from my experience differently, there's such a tremendous need and the more of us that are talking about this and helping other leaders go through this process only will continue to enhance how organizations grow and evolve. And I know we haven't talked about it, but one of the great leaders of our generation that I admire, and I know you had a major part in being involved at movement is Casey Crawford. And you know how Casey goes out and wants to really show love to people and building an organization, which you had a huge place in to say, this is how we go about business and seeing the successes of that to meet only undergirds, this whole idea of you saying it's always about people, it's me saying we need to be the healthiest leaders we can possibly be to really create change in the world. And I also come back, and I'm going to circle this back to cows. So my previous career, we haven't talked about this. I was a nutritionist for dairy cows. So I did that for 13 years and one of the things my friends and I would often joke about is like, it's never the four legged problems. It's always two legged and so it always confused me at some point, how can I use this experience in dairy farms and working with cows to where I'm at now, because every single challenge we dealt with in agriculture, every single one always comes down to two legs? And it's always about people. It is always about people and I look back and say, man, the businesses, the leaders that embrace that, as opposed to having this, you know where I have to deal with people, all their unforeseen problem, I wish I wouldn't have to deal with this. It's like, you get the opportunity to make a difference in people's lives. That's what your business should be about whatever your widget is. And if you focus on that, man, you're going to create massive change in the world. And it doesn't matter what industry it is. None of it matters. It's just, how do we do that with people? [CHRIS] Well, we kind of started this conversation saying whether you are picking the best cow or winning soccer games in the end, it's really meaningless. Like there's nothing new under the sun and it's meaningless, it's meaningless, it's meaningless. The only thing meaningful is your relationships with people. And so to your point, if people were never involved, things be a lot smoother, but because you now have people involved, they, we create challenges. And so, yes, whether you're producing a widget or nutrition or consulting or mortgages or whatever you're doing, writing books, it's still about people and the lasting impact and the meaningful purpose in your life will be not what you created in a mast and what you bought and purchased and how much debt you're now under. It will be the impact that you've had on these lives around you. And I think that, like, that's probably been ingrained in me from my dad to my earliest years where I go, man, it's so much about these relationships and leadership. The empathetic leader of the future is somebody who says, "No, like I put myself in your shoes. I care about people. And in the end, I know that I can accomplish this task, this role and these responsibilities by collecting the right people, versus forcing people to do things that I want them to do and never having any friends." And again, I mean, I know we've sort of joked about it, but like it's still always about people. [TYLER] Yes. Well, it's about people on that pathway to be the healthiest most self-actualized version of themselves and knowing that is a journey for all of us, because every day in life, we have experiences that are our baggage or traumatic or whatever. It's going back to when you were a senior in high school and your tear the cartilage in your knee. It's like, how do you get through this? How do you press through that experience? Other people have different experiences and it's looking back at those experiences and saying, what values did I get out of that? But also I think it's very important as I look at my experiences there, what blind spots did that develop and knowing that I have to as much understand the values, but also then recognize the blind spots because those blind spots are what are barriers in our relationships. For me, and I'll share this is when I was 14 and my younger brother died and that accident, how I dealt with it as I put my head down and pushed, because that's how I got through things. So through high school and in college and in much of my early career, it's how did I get through things? I just put my head down and push. And so that's how I dealt with things and had to be a blind spot exposed to be able to say, "Oh, well, that's a problem," because I pushed people away as opposed to putting my arms up and endearing people because I want to go through it with others. [CHRIS] So I'll tell you about an issue, that's sort of, I've recognized. I feel like I've been striving my whole life and the core of it would be somehow I haven't arrived and I've got a win one more thing, whatever that thing is. And the best image that I can give you is that in 1997, we had just won the national championship for division three soccer. We had just beat the college of New Jersey and I remember watching all my teammates run, guys on the bench, run across the field and pile up. My goalie who was behind me, because again, I was center back, ran past me to the pile. And I remember watching as guys piled on top of each other thinking, is that it? Like, when's the next game? Like, can we win at a higher level? Can we play somebody else? Can we we compete again? And that has become a blind spot in my life that I've had to continue to work on, which is I can never take time to celebrate because I'm always trying to figure out what's the next thing I strive towards. And I don't think it's healthy just to put that out there. I think some people might argue, well, that's the competitive nature of Chris? No, it's actually not all that healthy because I don't really even know what I'm striving for. I just am striving. So that's what I've been kind of working on and God's been continuing to sort of work in me and getting to a place where you could go, "Okay, this is what I do and I'm now striving to have a greater impact on people not to keep winning at something or amassing more money or doing bigger roles or whatever." It might be taking on more leadership. And so that's the thing that, again, our experiences teach us so much. [TYLER] Can I speak into that? [CHRIS] Go for it, please. [TYLER] I believe at that moment, and I've had other moments in competition and it's been something kind of relate to that it's like, is this all it is? Is like early. I believe there's two fold, one that really is undergirded because that's not your purpose. I believe when you see that, it's like, okay, I can do this, but yet it's not my purpose. And then all of a sudden, when you find your purpose and like, this is what I'm here to do, then it becomes to where I want to go do more, not because it's, what can I get for me, but I see the impact it has on others. And I think you're starting to do that now and I'm guessing as you do more stuff, like we're having this conversation, you're seeing less and less of that. I have to strive to accomplish more. It's like, can I do more of this because of the purpose and the value that you get out of serving people? The other part of that is I also believe at some point in life, we all get across a finish line and we say, is this all it was about? Is this was what it was. And I believe in something that I've embraced and love is it's about the journey. It's like for me in my experiences and understanding it's not the game. It's not the championship. It's not the contest in the arena. It's not that that's really fulfilling. For me it's the process and journey along the way. It is the growth that, and I know you coach some of your kids, I know you coach soccer. It is seeing that kid who, the first day he's giving all of his heart, he's got a great attitude, he's just on the team, because he's on the team and the end of the season, he has grown and developed and all the other kids rely on him at some point. And he is that kid that makes the difference. That to me, that's what all the values in, because you see that process and you're like, "Yes, let's not have an end of season. Let's not have a championship. Let's just keep going." Because everything that has grown, it's just step after step after step after step and all the people that come along with it. And so, as you're telling that, I think when you stopped I saw your face kind of light up, as you just said, "Yes, it is about that." And I've had a really good mentor that's helped me understand that because as I see him model, that's what he does. That's what John does. It's kind of like, I'll do this forever because I see what it does in people's lives and I'm like, I want all of that. [CHRIS] Yep. That's what makes a 73, 74 year old? [TYLER] 74. [CHRIS] Get up every day early and keep going. That's what makes a 74-year-old stand out in 90 degree humidity in Guatemala and sign like a thousand books while sweating. And then we're walking away and two guys run up with two last books and all of us want to protect John. And he says, "I'll sign your books." They go, and as we're walking away, John says to everybody, "Listen, people will never remember what you told them, but they'll always remember how you made them feel." And then it's like drop the mic, he walking, we all feel like idiots. All right. Game over. But that's it right? That's it. [TYLER] Yes. Well, and I think what's great is we get people in our life and we look for them and we seek them out. One, find a place in that circle, number two are able to help each other grow in those lessons to say, "Hey, there's a better way to go about this. There's a better way to check off the championships. There's a better record to account for." And it's like, did I make a difference today and if I did great, let's do it again tomorrow. I hope you enjoy these conversations. For me, that's one of the great joys that I have doing this and hosting this podcast, to be able to connect with people like Chris, to have this longer term conversation, to go through his experiences where he's been involved in organizations and focus in, on making a tremendous culture. And he really sets the path, the groundwork going back to his days, playing soccer at Wheaton college to being in the finance industry, to working as a pastor, to then jumping into mortgage banking and then just continuing to evolve in this business. I love it because when it comes down to it, as he says, it's always about people. I don't care what industry you're in. I have a background in the dairy industry, then through network marketing, owning and operating a gym to now doing this and having these conversations with people and realizing man, when we become healthier as leaders, when we understand what it's really about and how empowering and serving people and going through all the things that Chris talked about, understanding the dynamics of people, that's what makes organizations, businesses thrive and for people to have tremendous contribution in this world. I hope you're getting value out of this today. I hope you've gotten tremendous value out of each of the guests. And I'd love for you to give me a review on whatever platform you're listening to. Let me know how this podcast is doing. Let me know the guests that you love, what you love about it, what you took away from it. Send me an email. I love getting those emails from people maybe I haven't caught up with in years and what they've valued, they're getting out of these podcast. It really helps me say, Hey, I'm on the right path. Or if I need to correct me and let me know. At the same point, I want to give you an invitation to join the Impact Driven Leader round table. You've heard from Josh. You've heard from him share his experience in the round table and I'd love for you to take a part in that as well. You can go to theimpactdrivenleader.com, show notes here, to be able to learn more about that. And last shout out for Chris Allen. You can learn more about him at LinkedIn. Search Chris Allen or on Instagram, Chris Tait Allen, learn more about his organization, Always About People. And I love really having my knife sharpened with bright, smart, experienced people like Chris. And I truly hope you are too and really look for more information than he shares because when he gets better, I know we all get better. And when you get better, we all get better because as leaders get better, the world around them gets better. Thanks for being here today. I'll see you on the next episode.