IDL58 Season 2: Building the Best: Welcoming Life's Tests, with John Eades

Why do great leaders welcome being tested by life? What is the power of good communication that you can harness in your team? Are you people-oriented over money-orientated?

Today Tyler has a great conversation with his friend, John Eades. John is the founder of LearnLoft and a former collegiate golfer as well as the author of Building the Best. John and Tyler dig into what John has learned since writing his book, and Tyler shares his insights about what really resonated with him about the book.

Meet John Eades

John Eades is the CEO of LearnLoft, a leadership development company that exists to turn managers into leaders. As a motivational speaker, John connects to the hearts and minds of leaders from all industries and experiences.

John’s weekly leadership column has over 150k subscribers, and he is the host of the Follow My Lead Podcast. John is also the author of Building the Best: 8 Proven Leadership Principles to Elevate Others to Success.

Visit LearnLoft as well as John Eades’ personal website. Connect with him on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn.

IN THIS EPISODE WE DISCUSS:

• Leaders become great when they are tested (7:30)

• Persistence and discipline are taught (12:08)

• Look in the mirror before looking at others (16:24)

• The power of good communication (22:13)

• Potential barriers to good leadership (45:08)

Leaders become great when they are tested

Adversity builds character and tests the ability to problem solve, keep a level head, and lead.

A leader is only known as great once they have proven themselves to be that great leader in tough times.

Once you realize this as a leader, you start to welcome adversity, because you know that it can embolden and strengthen you.

Not only are these tests good for you, but they are also beneficial to the people around you. They can push you to become a better leader, partner, or parent. So, you end up being a better person to yourself and to those around you.

Persistence and discipline are taught

Some people seem to have it easy, but then struggle when they receive pushback from life. They have not yet learned persistence through the pushback, and therefore give up sooner than they should.

It is not easy, but it is learnable. You can push back against the dissuasion and achieve the dream you desire, but you learn that skill of dedication and discipline through working against the grain and showing yourself that you are capable.

Look in the mirror before looking at others

Many people – leaders and employees alike – pass the blame without looking at what they could have done to improve a situation.

Leaders should ask themselves these questions when accessing a difficulty in the team, or a letdown on a project, instead of parceling off the blame to someone under them.

It is important for leaders to ask these questions first before discussing replacing someone in their team, or helping them to find another more suitable job if they are not thriving in your company. 

The power of good communication

To help build the best in leaders, it helps to have these two qualities:

•        Personal responsibility and accountability

•        Great communication

Good communication may seem obvious, but that is where most issues can start when it is poorly done.

People often think they are better at communication than they are. Leaders should therefore get into the practice and habit of asking their employees where they can improve.

Potential barriers to good leadership

•         Selfishness

•        Spending time and energy on unimportant things

•        Having a big, unhealthy ego

•         Being money-orientated over people-orientated

Resources, books, and links mentioned in this episode:

BOOK | John Eades – Building the Best: Eight Proven Leadership Principles to Elevate Others to Success

BOOK | Donald Miller – Hero on a Mission: A Path to a Meaningful Life

Visit LearnLoft as well as John Eades’ personal website.

Connect with him on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn.

The Impact Driven Leader YouTube Channel

Join the Impact Driven Leader Community
Connect with Tyler on Instagram and LinkedIn

Email Tyler: tyler@tylerdickerhoof.com

About the Impact Driven Leader Podcast

The Impact Driven Leader Podcast, hosted by Tyler Dickerhoof, is for Xillennial leaders who have felt alone and ill-equipped to lead in today's world. Through inspiring interviews with authors from around the world, Tyler uncovers how unique leadership strengths can empower others to achieve so much more, with real impact.

Rate, review and subscribe here on Apple Podcasts or subscribe on Stitcher and Spotify.

[Persistence] is taught. There might be some people who are wired genetically a little bit better to keep going from a persistence perspective, but ultimately it’s taught.

John Eades

Podcast Transcription

[TYLER DICKERHOOF] Welcome back to the Impact Driven Leader podcast. This is your host, Tyler Dickerhoof. If it's your first time here, still welcome back. I'm glad you're here. Thankful that you guys are tuning in today listening in. Click play on whichever device that you're listening to podcasts on because today we're, I'm going to have a great conversation. Great conversation with my friend, John Eades. Can't wait to tell you more about John, but before I get there, my goal and mission in having these podcasts is to have conversations with people like John and other leaders and authors to help you as I did myself, become a healthier leader. I had to get healthy as a leader. My hope and desire is by listening to content that we're, these conversations that we're having here today, that it's able to help you move towards being a healthier leader, to learn more why, not how, why you should be a healthy leader, why you should work towards being a healthy leader. That's the stuff we'll talk about. So glad to have that as part of the Impact Driven Leader community, where you can be a part of the book club. Join the round table. We will be opening that up again soon for another cohort group. So excited for that. But one thing that I would love for you to do as you're listening in, if you're getting value out of this conversation today, leave a review, give me a rating. Make sure you've subscribed if you're not already. If somebody shared this with you, love to have you a subscriber. I just want to read this review that I got the other day. It came from Kayden, "I really appreciate the variety of insights Tyler brings forward through the guests on the podcast. The conversational format always has me walking a away with new learnings." Thank you Kayden, appreciate that. Thank you for leaving that in. That is my desire, to have a conversation with each one of my guests. I'll clue this in to you listening in. As I talk to guest, as I chat with him beforehand, I said, I want it to sound like we're sitting down in a coffee shop. You can drink tea, drink coffee, whatever, it doesn't matter. I have a hot drink. I don't care, but we're just having a conversation about leadership because to me that's where the greatest learnings, that's where the greatest revelations come from. It's not this prepared. It's not these questions that are canned. Got to have none of that here. Today, you're going to have that opportunity to listen to a conversation with my good friend, John Eades. John and I have known each other a couple years now. John is the founder of LearnLoft. He was a former collegiate golfer. He's also an author. He wrote the book Building the Best. I will make sure that's available in the show notes, great book. We dig into what he's learned since then, what was the one piece that had left out? As I explained to him, my viewpoint is actually was in there. You're going to hear, if you listen to a lot of these podcasts, you're going to hear some of the same information, but from a completely different angle. That's exciting to me. So again, thank you for listening. This is what I know. During this interview, I take moment to say, "Hey, John, say that again because I need to write this down." So make sure you have a pen, maybe your notes app, wherever you take notes available because John drops some absolute gold nuggets. I'll chat with you at the end as we go through that. John, good afternoon. Welcome to the podcast, buddy. It's great to see your smile. So excited for this conversation. For the listeners, John and I have known each other several years now. We got connect on social media, I believe, and we've done a couple podcasts together. I was a guest on his show. He was a guest with me previously. [TYLER] Since then you've wrote a book, written a book, you've recorded a book but you keep doing great things. As I was going through my friend list and we were talking, it was like, man, we just need to have a conversation as a podcast. I would love this. When we talked last in depth, it was the midst of COVID and how that was affecting everyone. So I want to talk a little bit about that, but we were just, as we're getting started here, I know sharing some personal stuff where my family is, where your family's at. And you shared something that I think is really pivotal. You talked about being in your 40's and learning lessons and what you do with your company, LearnLoft and how teaching the lessons not only apply for leaders in their business, but also in their personal life. So I'm going to let you say hi and then jump off from there. [JOHN EADES] No, I'm excited to be here, man. It's a real pleasure to be on, and to talk about things that matter. I think that's what I've always appreciated about you the most; is you're not afraid to talk about things that really matter, and that are going on in people's lives. Certainly we, there's nothing wrong with the surface levels. There's all kinds of great quotes and things that we can use and talk about that can help us on the surface but I think, and in reality, there's a lot deeper things going on in the world and you've never shied away from talking about the stuff that really matters; whether it be the way you show up as a husband or as a wife, the way you show up as a parent, the way you show up to your parents. That's some of the things we started with today. So I think in today's world right now, maybe more than ever, I feel like we're on this cliff of we've been on for a long time. Some of that might be financially. Some of it might be personally where we've just had to continue to find a way for a long time. It feels like we're this cliff, and we're either going to jump to the next cliff or we're going to fall. I don't know how many of us are going to make it and how many are not but I think talking about things in a real sense can help us feel confident that we can make that leap versus following some place where we really don't want to be. I always think about, it's like, what are we becoming? What are we becoming? I think there's something right now where we're at that cliff or that point where we've got a big decision to make. That's where I feel like we are at the moment. [TYLER] I think what's so interesting about that, and again, as we're catching up and we can dig into your book, Building the Best we can just chat about the conversations we have. But one of the things that I think is interesting about that is every leader that you talk to today says that the last two years, as we're recording this February of 2022, the last two years have been the most challenging because they haven't had a script. I talked about that when I introduced the book Here On A Mission, is we're yearning for a script. I think what's so interesting about that, I've never been on a movie set, but I do know this, that there's a difference between the screenplay and then all the directions. I think leaders are afraid to talk about all the directions they're having to go through in life and instead they've had to focus for so long on the screenplay and just think, oh, that tells a good story. It's the behind the scene stuff. It's like, no, John, what's going on in your life? What have you wrestled with the last two years? What have you wrestled with, everything else that is affecting the decisions you're making as a leader? It's what you were talking about earlier. That perspective is like, oh, I got to apply this stuff, not only my professional life, but my real life. [JOHN] Yes. You know what it is, it's a test and I think only leaders who are tested become great. So when you start thinking of about the tests that we have in our life, and for so long, I always thought of those tests as negative or test as something that was going to be not an opportunity, but a problem. I think when you start to think of your test being a Testament for somebody else, or only leaders for a test to become great, those two ideas, it's like now I start to look at these tests differently in my life. Almost like the preparation that I've been doing or the preparation that you've been doing, or your listeners coming back to the show each week to learn and grow and develop, it's preparing them to handle that test really well. Does it mean that it will be easy? No, it does not. [TYLER] No [JOHN] The test can be even harder maybe because you're prepared the test will be harder. I don't know. But I like to think of it that way of it's just the test and the better prepared you are for that test, the better your outcomes are going to be. [TYLER] I enjoy you sharing that perspective, John, from the standpoint of, I look at it this way, if, when you come to grips with realizing that your test is of value to everyone around you, as opposed to like you said, oh no, I got to deal with that test. No, this test is an opportunity. I look at that as like, if your tests are getting easier, then you're not growing. You're not challenging yourself. I think as a leader, as a parent, as a husband my opportunity is to say, how am I going to deal with these tests and be stronger through the process? If I do that, man, that's going to help me be a better leader even if I "fail the test." But if I fail it, acknowledge I failed it and fail forward, man, we're good. [JOHN] Yes. I mean, again I think I wrote about it in Building the Best, but failure is not final. Failure is feedback. It's like, if you can get in that mindset that this is a test and it's almost like a kid or the way you parent, in some ways, if we're not allowing our kids the safe space to go push those boundaries and fail a little bit and learn from it and grow from it, all of a sudden it's like you're not actually going to go create the best human being that you possibly can. In fact, you're going to hold them back. There's something really, I had this visual with my nine-year-old recently where he was playing kickball with his friends outside in the neighborhood. He wasn't very good. Just to be really Frank, he's not the best athlete in the world, but he has got a great heart and he cares. He was out there doing something that he wouldn't normally do. I was watching him from afar. In the first few times he got out and he got out and where he might have previously quit or given up, he decided to keep playing and keep playing. By the end of the game, he had not only learned the game, but he had learned how to get a hit or to kick the ball in the right spot. It's like, there's a metaphor there for all of us in our lives, which is if we give up too early, because the test is too hard, we're never going to reach our full potential. He's never going to go be a world class kickball player. [TYLER] Is there a professional league? There might be. [JOHN] Yes, maybe pickle ball, I'm in the pickle ball these days. There's like that in all of our lives; is don't give up too early, just because the test gets hard. You build this skill, you overcome and you learn and you test and you strive and you keep going and then something amazing starts to happen. You start to build some confidence internally, you start to build some motivation internally, and it's those things that allow you to keep going and to keep trying new things and to keep pushing that envelope. So I think that mindset going in that you don't have to be perfect, that failure is not final, failure is feedback and I'm capable of continuing to keep trying. [TYLER] Yes. As you share and think about that about your son, and I've learned from you the heart he has and I think about it from a coaching point of view. It's like I'd much rather work with a kid like that, that's willing to keep trying and he moves forward and moves forward as opposed to that player that's like, oh, I got this all down and he gets out the first time; and he's like, oh, and then he gets upset and then he gets out again and he's not trying to figure out, oh, what do I need to do to be able to just have success here? I think as you shared that, it's like your son was willing to do that work. So often we can see other athletes, other players, other people in our organization that it comes easy to and all of a sudden they get a little pushback and they're like, "I'm out, I'm done." Or they have a bad attitude. So I love having that thought. [JOHN] This is such an important point. Anyone out there listening, this is taught. There might be some people wired genetically a little bit better to keep going from a persistence perspective, but it's ultimately taught. I use another kid example, my seven year old was at home and mom was in bed, sick with COVID. So mom can't get up and get the hair ready in the morning. Well dad definitely can't do it. Like there's just, but here I am trying to coach a seven year old that she can put up her hair in a ponytail the way she wants it and she's like, "You can't do it. I can't do it." No one could do it. It took me back to this moment of coaching, similar to what you're saying, which is you don't necessarily have to have the information to coach someone. You got to able to continue to encourage them and to keep getting them to keep testing and to keep trying and to keep being persistent. And here's the seven year old, she can't get it, she gets two times through, she gets it one time through, she finally throws her little, whatever you call them. I don't even know what they are called. [TYLER] Rubber band. [JOHN] Yes, and here she wants to give up. I said, "Lucy, just try one more time. Just try one more time. You're so close." She ends up last time, third time she finally gets it. The bear hug that we gave at 6:30 AM about putting her hair on, it's moments like that she's going to remember, right when she needs it the most. The amount of time I reminded her that she put her hair up, that she persevered when it was difficult, she's going to be able to apply that in different areas of her life as she gets older. So anybody out there it's taught, it's taught, it's taught. It doesn't mean it's easy. Didn't mean I didn't want to throw that hair band right out the window or I wanted to give it in, but just keep going as a leader. It's a lesson for all of us. [TYLER] One of the things in, we've, at times when we catch up, we talk about what's going on life, business, just our perspective. We see leadership, which is very much in line. I haven't had many opportunities. And I know it's a little touchy to ask authors, "Hey, what either didn't you include in the book or what have you learned since?" But it's been a couple years since you wrote the book. It's also been a very challenging stretch in leadership. So I really want to take time. It's like John friend, "Hey dude, what are you learning right now? What is that next book that's going to add on to what you've already built and what challenges are people having going through the process of building the best team they can. So I want to talk about those things, because I just want to talk about that. I want to find out --- [JOHN] I love this question. [TYLER] I mean, this is a question that I would ask if we were on a phone call, isn't it? [JOHN] Yes, it's a great question because I have been thinking a lot about it and the one thing that's really missing in Building the Best that I've been thinking a lot about, which is each of our is taking responsibility for ourselves. Building the Best is a lot about leading teams and leading other people. It somewhat takes for granted the fact that each of us are taking responsibility in our own lives for leading ourselves well and taking ownership over what's in our 20 square feet, or what's in your little environment that you can take responsibility for. I think it was an enormous miss. I'll explain what I mean. There's something so powerful about someone that looks at in a situation and says, I, not they, or them, or it was somebody else's fault or somebody else's problem. But someone that says, I, "What could I do better? What could I have done differently?" There's so many times where we think someone's in a leadership position that they're ultimately wanted to responsibility, but in fact, what they do is they think, man, my team member's not good enough. Or if that person doesn't have what it takes. Instead, they should be saying, what could I have done differently to help this person more? Have I done everything I can to help them be successful? Because if you've done that, if you can look in the mirror before you look at anybody else and say, I've done all I can in this situation and so you're not, this isn't the place for you and I love you and I want to help you find the next place, but it's just not going to be here; those are the conversations that I want more people to have. So if there's something missing from that book, it's a part of the next one that I'm working on right now, but it's like, it seems so obvious to people that wake up and take ownership and wake up and look in the mirror and say, I, but for the vast majority of people, that's not the world that they live in. It's a very difficult place. First, it's a very difficult person to be married to. It's a very difficult person to report to. It's a very difficult person for them to be successful long-term. [TYLER] I'm guessing there's some life experiences of that spotlighted that too. But to me, I mean the question I wrote down here is you said that is as a leader, this is as a leader and you're facing that and taking responsibility as I, more powerful than we, because you said, instead of pointing at them or my team or those individuals in the organization, whatever it may be when you say I, and you did a great job of describing in our interaction. If I'm leading you, we're working together and John you're not developing, you're not this or that. Instead of saying, all right, how do we fix this, if we say, no, I, to me, that's got to be more powerful. [JOHN] It is a counterintuitive. You go to a John Gordon, it's greater than me. That is true. I'm not saying that the I has to be bigger than the team. It's not, but it's too many people that aren't taking personal responsibility for themselves or what else they could do in the situation to improve it. They want to put that blame on someone else. It's like, and go ahead. [TYLER] Yes, no, I just think it's that frame of you just said, collectively as an organization, we're accomplishing something outward. It is obviously we. It's not me. What am I going to get out of this? But then that backward loop, as you've heard so many people is if the team wins, they won. If the team fails, I failed. I mean, in taking that leadership and to me, that's what you're alluding to here is that, are we doing enough to accept that my place in it? To me, that is being a part of the we. [JOHN] It really is. It's --- [TYLER] I mean, we're getting very ethereal here, but I think it's great. [JOHN] It, but, for someone, this is a great question to ask yourself right now, is, am I blaming other people in any capacity for something that I ultimately have control over, like in any area of your life? Because anytime we start placing blame on things that we can't control or things that ultimately we're not responsible for all of a sudden we become weaker, we become less powerful, we become at the mercy of X, Y, Z. And guess what doesn't come from that? Good things. [TYLER] Yes. To use the term, we lose agency. It becomes more polarizing. It's dehumanizing. I think about some of the work that Brené brown has done, especially over the last couple years, and just all the tension we've had. One of the things that she comments is when you start going down the path of dehumanizing them, they, other people, well, that's when we have all the problems. Instead of saying, oh, I'm just as fallible here and take ownership, man, I think that's, it's pretty darn rich. [JOHN] It really is rich. I mean, it's all the way rich down to the fact that with that mindset going in, not, I am more important than my team, or I am more important than anybody else. But it's like, what else can I do to help X, Y, Z? What else can I do to support X, Y, Z person or team member? Or it's like, it's like coaching a soccer team. It's not making the center forward more important than the rest of the team, but it's like as, or if I'm on the bench, what, I'm not mad that I'm not in the game to coach. What could I do right now to better support my team? Could I be standing on the end of the bench, supporting them, or getting the water bottle faster to them during a break? Like whatever. It's like, it's not blaming the coach. It's what else can I do to help this team be successful? The teams that do that, the teams, the individuals that are bought into their personal leadership and their personal responsibility, you get a bunch of people together like that, I mean, the sky is really the limit. [TYLER] Yes. I mean, it's the collective efforts and that's when it really compounds. Here's interesting. Do you find that is, you said that's the piece that's missing from Building the Best. Do you find that's been the biggest challenge for leaders as they attempt in this process to build the best? If we're thinking about leaders today and the ones that have navigated the last two years of unforeseen challenges, the best, and then those leaders that have by their actions, I'm going to label it as have been quite toxic, have created more detriment than they have advancement, do you believe that that one thing across all of that, is their personal responsibility or are there other factors there? [JOHN] I think there's two. I think personal accountability is number one, you could say accountability, responsibility interchangeably there. The second one is communication. I know this seems so obvious because you see how, where teams break down or where leaders falter, where relationships struggle. It almost always centers around communication breaking down, being either not present. So I would say if there's two reasons why leaders fail, it's personal accountability and communication. What's so funny about communication if I were to ask your wife right now, "Hey, how good of a communicator is he," her answer might not be as good as you this it is. So it's always this like little, you might be a great communicator --- [TYLER] No, no, I understand what you're saying. I mean, I get it. [JOHN] It's like, we always think we're a little bit better at communication than we actually are. So it's one of those lenses that I want leaders to start to look through, is if I asked every single member of my team, what our core values are, could they repeat them? Secondarily, could they teach them; one thing to repeat them, another thing to teach them. So those, the types of things, when you start thinking, hey, I'm a good communicator. My team can repeat them. I'm a great communicator when my team can teach them. [TYLER] I love that. That's good. So you just shared a great lesson. So say that again, because I want to make sure as everyone else is I'm about ready to take notes here and hopefully everyone listening in too. Go ahead. [JOHN] Good communicators, their teams can repeat what they heard. As an example, they repeat the core values. They repeat the vision or they repeat the process that a team needs to go through. But you know are a great communicator when your team can teach those things that you've told them. [TYLER] Oh man. [JOHN] It seems so simple. But I was, we started a little Bible study in one of these organizations that I'm a part of and I was so mesmerized by this lesson. Because we started going through of John. When I went through the book of John and just repeating them or being a part of the Bible study, it was no big deal. But when I had to prepare to teach chapter three and four of John, the level of preparation required to teach it was so much greater. I was, it just made me realize that until your people can teach back whatever that is that you're telling them, that's when they've gotten to a deeper level. And I mean, but John Maxwell said it so well, those four levels to know whether somebody could do something, but I think it starts to really come into play in the quality of communicator you are. [TYLER] Man, I love that, well, obviously that lesson, but it's, I've been through that myself almost a verbatim of, it was a Bible study. It was leading with my brother-in-law and a friend and it was the mornings I had to lead it that I'm like, oh man, I can't just read through this and say, okay, I get it. It's like, no, I have to come prepared. I think there's a, there comes back to that personal accountability, is if you're accountable to it, then you will do that preparation. If you're like, nah, I'll just go through the motions, my communication, I'll just read it off the list. I think part of that is really, I'm going to put you on the spot here, but I mean, there's a good conversation here is what's the connecting point between this accountability and communication? Meaning what's the connective thread between those and what action is a connective thread? Meaning if I'm going to, you tell me Tyler, all right, you act like this as a leader and that's going to put you in the place to be personally accountable, but it's also going to create a mindset that you choose to communicate more effectively, how would you describe that? [JOHN] I'm going to use a personal example if you're okay with that. [TYLER] Please. [JOHN] My wife's been going through some challenging mental health and some eating disorder stuff to be kind specific, not something I can fix for her. Ultimately it's going to be a decision that she makes about her health and wellbeing. I can't solve that problem for her as a leader. What I can do and where this combination of accountability and communication comes in is I can be personally responsible for my actions and saying, what else can I do to support her? In our communication, we can determine, hey, this is what I actually need from you to support me in this help and wellness journey and that might require me from a communication perspective, is when I get home, when we're really busy and all these things, I say, "Hey, how was your day today eating? How did you do today?" Having the courage to put that on the table when maybe it's not convenient for me or not top of mind for me, it's like, I can control asking my wife how she did today. [JOHN] That's where I think the connection point is between accountability and communication. I can take personal accountability, but then if I don't communicate with her about what I ultimately can control, I drop the ball. You could take the example at work with a team member, like you got a brand new person selling some of the best health and wellness products in the world. Then all of a sudden it's like I'm taking personal accountability for getting them trained and developed. Now the connection, the communication then becomes we have a meeting next week at 8:00 AM and you're actually going to teach me what I taught you last week about this product line. Now you're starting to say like, that's where I think the blend is for our personal accountability and then doing something with that accountability to connect to other people, which would be the communication portion. [TYLER] Can I put a word on that? As I envision it, and I actually, I'll recant and say, you put it in the book, but you maybe didn't describe it in such the way, but it's how I view it and how I describe it and define it. You just told me all about empathy and people that listen to this podcast is maybe like a broken record, like that's all he talks about. But when I look at it as all of my failures as a leader, this either lack of personal accountability, how it's your problem. It's not mine. It's your problem. If I think about the time that I've chosen not to communicate, "Oh, it's not worth it. I'm not going to deal with it. Oh I've already told them once." That's me displaying a lack of empathy, but everything you just described with your wife, everything that you were describing before that, to me, that's being empathetic and that's a practice. We've talked a little bit about this, and I know you talk about it in the book having empathy and practicing empathy. I believe it's so mis-defined in our society and that's why I put the description and people listening to this podcast have heard it. I don't know if you have yet or not John. It's putting your arm around someone and walking with them. When you do that, just let me play this out for you. I'd love for you to just jump in. Come on, dude. We're having fun. [JOHN] Yes, keep going. [TYLER] If I put my arm around you and I say, John, we're going to walk through this together, that means you can't carry me. I have to, I'm accountable to taking my own steps, but it's also, if we're walking together and say, you go and I'm being a blind and you're walking with me, okay, we go step down some steps, we go down a staircase, don't tell me, "Hey, Tyler, there's steps here. Just go with me," I'm going to stumble and fall because that's a lack of communication. It's this idea of, and I believe empathy's down a spectrum and it's like, you're callous and hard. That's low empathy. You're a doormat, that's low empathy and being truly empathetic somewhere in the middle is where you're personally accountable. But you're also engaging and communicating with someone else. To me, that's how I view it and that to me is the solution here. Go ahead. [JOHN] I think, I like the way you describe it. I mean, in the book, we describe it as putting yourself in someone else's shoes and acting differently because, I mean, it's one thing to put yourself in their shoes. It's another thing to act differently. Because to your point, like putting your arm around them and then walking with them, I think you're right. It's become such an important leadership skill. It really has, maybe more than ever. The amount of things going on in this world, like, let's take a look at the return to the office that so many organizations and so many managers are facing right now. In many ways, it's a great thing to return to the office and be around people and build that community and build those kinds of things. But at the same time, just the rule for rules sake as a leader or manager, and just saying, this is the way we're going to do it moving forward, but not taking into account that like, that person might have a kid or this at home or this going on. It's like, I'm all for standards. I'm all for setting that bar high but at the same time, knowing that this thing's, this pandemic's changed us. [TYLER] Yes. [JOHN] It's not all bad. [TYLER] I think of the example. It was funny. I was watching a TV show last night and to me, there were two billions. The latest episode, Mike Prince, now main character, one of the main characters put up Wood's pyramid in his office and in these financial traders and he makes the mention in this episode about what and understood that you treat people fairly, but not equally; meaning top performers get a different amount of treatment because of who they are and what they are. Doesn't mean that you can't get treated differently. It's just performed differently. I look at this as we're describing is if you're talking about return to office, so many challenges, different corporations and leaders have experienced, and it's driven a wedge between so many people because you're like, just understand my situation. A friend of mine, he is a financial advisor has managed his firm. He was telling me, one of his guys has not been back in the office in two years. Last year, 2021, this is like a 20, 25 year career was the best year ever. He calls him and he's like, "Dude, what's going on?" He goes, "I'm way more productive. I feel better about myself. I'm not just going through the motions. I'm not looking to like," so for him to go back in the office would be a detriment to him and all of his clients. To me, that's just, we've had this opportunity that shoved every leader in the face to say, you can choose to be empathetic. Do you want to be? [JOHN] Good question. [TYLER] It really comes down to that. It's like, do you want to be the a-hole that's hard and you have to be this way, or to the other extent where people have gotten taken advantage of, because they're the door mat. To me, that's not healthy either for organizations. [JOHN] No, it's not healthy. [TYLER] Somebody wants to take advantage of you. No. [JOHN] But's the exact, and you're so right. I hate --- [TYLER] Please don't say that. [JOHN] No, you are, you are really right. [TYLER] It's because I failed. [JOHN] But for leaders to think about, particularly big organizations with, and we don't get into all the details of it, but the real estate and they want to make sure that investment. Look, the office can be great. This is not a knock on the office. Think of, if I'm a leader and I'm thinking, I got a guy that's just out of college and he's never been in the office and he doesn't have mentors or people in his walk, like I've got to get him back in the office because I need to help him continue to grow and develop. He might only know this so what we're actually asking him to do by coming the office might be inconvenient to him at the time. But you actually have his best interest in mind. That's not weak. That's strong. That's putting yourself in his shoes and acting differently because of it. So to your point, as long as we don't go back into the office to do exactly what we're doing today, remotely, then I'm okay with it. If we're going back in the office just to go back in the office and we're going to keep working, like we would at home, that is a terrible policy. [TYLER] I think what's interesting, you talked about this, someone, I'm going to say their early twenties, new into career, whatever they may be and you say, hey, part of the office is being around the models and having the interaction with people. But here's what I find funny. My sister is, I got to look down at my watch to understand and think about, she is what now, 26, she'll be 27 this year. She just graduated a couple years ago. The latter years of her education were all online. She didn't go to a physical class. So we're thinking about this, oh people have to be in office, but guess what? For the last couple years of their education, they rarely went to a class. They might go meet with a small group of people to work through a project but a lot of the were they had to figure it out on their own. So we've conditioned a work culture to be able to work remote. Now all of a sudden, that's why I think so many thrive, but there's also people like my sister, who's like, I didn't thrive in that. I needed to be in the classroom. I needed to be around people. I want to work in that space. I think giving people that, but underlining it, as you said with, hey, what are the key factors, I know that can only come when we interact in person. So it's making sure that that's getting accomplished regardless of the office situation, which to me comes back to your point of communication, man. [JOHN] It does. Like I was just thinking about like the events that you guys do, bringing management teams together or bringing all people, the high performers together throughout the year. Like it could be, think, well, we could just do that online, which we did over COVID but there's so powerful about the human connection too. I mean, I was at a management team dinner last week and I learned things by asking a really tough question to a management team about each other, that we would just never get to virtually. It helps you have better empathy for where that person or man, or woman comes from and why they make decisions the way they do. So that's where the point is for this return to work or office policy, is if we're going back, we better be going back for a reason to have conversations like that, to try to understand and get to know people at a deeper and a human level to work together as a team. If we're all just going back in the office to close our doors and work by ourselves thanks, but no, thanks. It's not worth it. It's not going to, it will work, but people aren't going to like it. They're going to lose the flexibility. [TYLER] Let's talk about that from a standpoint. To connect it, but just moving along is what did you see or what have you worked with the organizations that you work with through LearnLoft, the ones that have really said, "Hey, how do we be intentional about all of that connectedness?" How do we manage through that? Okay, say, we're going to as you just described, if we're going to come back into the office and we're doing things differently than we did at home, how was their intentionality through that process? What have leaders done there to really bridge that gap, to move towards that great communication? [JOHN] Well, it comes down to starting everybody, whether they admit it or not, wants to feel like they're a part of something bigger than themselves like they belong. I don't care if it's Tyler or John or Amy or Kristen. It doesn't matter whether you're willing to admit that or not. You want to be a part of something bigger than yourselves and that you belong to something. So the only way to do that and what the great organizations have figured out is that you've got to have centers of excellence or teams of excellence, which means your frontline managers become essential. We used to think of a manager as someone that stood on the line of the assembly line and making sure people showed up on time and that all the parks were there and people worked fine. Okay. Now that we're in this thought-based economy, not saying there's not still manufacturing out there, but we're in this thought-based economy. So now our managers have to act and think like leaders who are bringing people together to achieve higher levels of excellence in the work that they do, which means that frontline manager has to be really well equipped to lead people as good, if not better than the CEO. Because if that frontline manager that leads a team of eight or 10 or 12 people isn't well equipped to bring people together and make sure they are known and feel like they belong, those people are going to be disengaged and eventually give half-ass work, which means eventually they're going to go somewhere else to be their best self. I think that's what the best organizations are figuring out, is we can't do really great connected teams at a 150, 500 team levels. We've got to be connected on a smaller scale, like a smaller community and the managers have to take the lead in that. [TYLER] It really begs of this movement from, and I'm reflecting back on Peter Drucker and understanding, moving from the mechanical world where it was hyper efficiency and trying to apply that into management and realizing that efficiency isn't in people as a plus or minus. It's them as a circle and saying, how are they as, how are they contributing to the organization? As I'm thinking through this, Adam Grant's give and take. Really the givers, long-term, are of the greatest benefit to the organization. It's not the blend of give and take. It's actually the givers. I think because it makes that circle really well worn. As you describe this idea, it's like, hey, if I'm leading people, the important thing I can do, isn't about their, their efficiencies. How many calls did you make today? How many sales did you today? It's, "John, tell me about what's going in your life. Help me understand what you're going through right now and let me connect with you to understand, okay, how can I take some of that burden? How can I free up some but knowing that, hey, as you described earlier with your daughter, when your wife was sick, it's like, if I knew that as a manager saying, oh, okay, "John, I understand you're dealing with that right now. hey, we'll make sure we take things in place so you don't have to feel the stress of what's going on here at the office, in our work, because what you're doing with your daughter is really important because it's important to your family, which is important to us, or as an organization." I think when we've seen that, go ahead, jump in. [JOHN] I would even take this a step further. [TYLER] Yes, please. [JOHN] The future of work and specifically the people that will be in demand more than maybe any other technical skill are the people that can create a center of excellence, of people, of a team to get a team running as a center of excellence with every single team member feeling like they belong and they know how they contribute and they know how important they are. Because I think you can take those people that have that skill, that know how to do that and you could plant them in any organization, in any industry and they could turn a team around in a certain amount of time. It might not be immediate, but over time you know they're going to create a center of excellence. All excellence is, is surpassing ordinary standards. That's all it is. We often think of Kobe Bryan or Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, and that's excellence too. But a center of excellence is surpassing ordinary standards. If you're getting a little bit better, every single it's going to add up over the course of a year, over five years, over 10 years. So if people learn how to do that as a skill as to take a team and get a little bit better and create a center of excellence, they'll have a job and they'll make an impact well beyond what they think they're capable of. [TYLER] I love it and I love the opportunity to teach that. As I think about coaching sports, I know your son is getting into golf and you think about as a team sport. He's got other kids around him. It's like, I think about Wayne Gretsky and the quotes I've heard is he said the best players don't play in the NHL. The best players that help other players be their best play in the NHL. That's what you just talked about. It's this idea of like, if I focus on that, what do I do best, but how can I make everyone else around me their best? There's always going to to be a demand for me. What I want to ask next is what do you see are the barriers for leaders doing that? [JOHN] Selfishness, number one, falling in love with things that aren't that important. They're important on the surface. Like you need to feed your family and you need a house and you need cars. All those things are true. But what holds us back from doing that is our ego and being selfish, is believing that we're more important than the team. We're more important than anyone else that is a part of this. And thinking that I don't know a better way to say this other than what Instagram and all these things are modeling is that the bigger the house, the bigger the car, particularly in young men, for some reason, I don't know why I'm, maybe I'm shape [crosstalk] I was with three young men on Saturday all highly talented guys. All they talked about was money. I mean, all they talked about was money, in the cars and where the CEO lives and how many houses they had. It's like, money by itself is not bad. We need to make it. I'm all for capitalism. Okay. I'm all for it. It affords so many great things about life, but when it becomes your master, when it's the only thing that you're reaching for, it's going to have you going away from creating a center of excellence with other people or helping someone else become the best version of themselves, because you're going to be thinking, what can I get out of this? How can I use this person to get where I'm trying to go when I'm done with them, I'll throw them to the way side? They'll never know what hit them. Too many executive leaders have gotten comfortable with using a team member and then right when they're done or right when they've done what they've needed to do, they throw them aside because they've elevated themselves another level. It's honestly sad. It's honestly sad. [TYLER] I've experienced that. [JOHN] Got fired up on that one. [TYLER] Oh yes. I mean, well, I mean, there's so much there. I mean that's a whole different, we'll just chalk that up for a different conversation, John because that's a good one. Because I think there's a great responsibility there, is to realign that. I think you're right. I was having a conversation with someone and trying to reflect back, as you were saying, that it's actually, it is very biological. He was saying, Tyler, when we see images because of how it was played out in history, before we had video, before we had printing, before had all these things, if we saw something acted out, we were prepared to respond to that. Meaning if we saw from a hunting perspective, or if we saw something where human interaction, where it's like, "Hey, I have to compete with John for a mate or whatever else," it starts to become very, that's what our eyes were for. But if we hear something from a spoken word, it's completely different. It's not in that context. It's more of like, I'm teaching you, I'm expressing this to you. So with that lens, and there's a expert in this area that told me about that. I need to investigate more. But it really starts to take into consideration or content what we consume, but what we broadcast and how we want to create the change of what you just said. There's great responsibility. [JOHN] Yes. There's something that's helped me lately. I've been thinking a lot about like the number of followers you house is great. It can be exciting and that's awesome. It increases your sphere of info and impact, and those things are great. Money is great, but lately I've gotten really obsessed with kind of making an impact with what's right around me. I know it sounds almost counterintuitive because it would be amazing to have Martin Luther King or Abraham Lincoln and have that kind of impact on the world. By all means, I hope you do or I hope I do. I have that kind of impact. But I also understand that I get the opportunity to impact like the people on the team's call or the people that I've ran into at the end of church or the person that came in for an interview. Even if they don't join my team, they're sitting in front of me for a reason right now. I think more people thinking, hey, it's not about what might be out there, how many followers that I need to get to make this level. It's like, what about the three people that are watching this video? Or what about the three people that are on this team meeting? That's, what's most important right now. So if there's anything I'm personally working on, which is many things, but that one in particular, which is like, can I just focus on the people that are in front of me right now and give them my very best? [TYLER] I love it, dude. I want to be respectful of your time. I thank you so much for being here. It was great conversation. It's like, I'm kind of at myself that we haven't had this more often lately. It's been too long, but I'm thankful for it. I thank you for spending time and appreciate you. [JOHN] I don't know that there's a better, I'm very complimentary of you obviously, but I'll sign off with this for your listeners, which is for someone that's had the kind of success that you and your wife have had and the kind of impact that you're making, the fact that you keep showing up and you keep looking for ways to help develop yourself and other people, it's a lesson for all of us. I don't just say that to your horn. I think it's a great lesson for all of us that says, hey, I got a lot on my plate, but I'm going to keep making an impact where I can. It's inspiring to me. [TYLER] Well, Thank you. John, good times and thank you again. [JOHN] Absolutely. [TYLER] If this is the first time you've listened to the Impact Driven Leader podcast, maybe it's the first time you've heard me talk about empathy, if you're a regular listener, if you've listened to now the 50 couple episodes we've had, you've heard me describe it quite a bit. To me, it's not with intention that I go into these episodes where we start talking about empathy. It just amazes me how much when I go through the conversations that we have with leaders and we highlight the points that really work well, how much empathy is a part of that. So just to reiterate for me, as I describe empathy, it is putting your arm around someone and walking with them. I think today in our world, as a leader, that is an essential trait to develop. I had to develop it. I wasn't real good at it. If you go to Strength. Finder, Strength Finder's is an empathy quotient, actually, mine's pretty low. I'd love to retake that almost to see if my inherent skill of empathy as a leader has grown. I believe it has. Others around me could contest that it has as well. But I want to highlight, again, a piece that John left, not only his vulnerability, sharing his own personal journey. I think that's important as leaders, that how often are you having those conversations with people you work with to what they're really struggling with, that may be affecting how they're showing up each day? If you take time to do it, I can guarantee it's going to have an impact on how they see your organization and how they see you're able to impact them in their life. But when John shared this, that good communication leaves teams repeating what they heard, but it's great communication to where people teach others what they've learned. Man, I think that's a great way to stop and think about how well are we communicating? Is someone just saying, oh yes, I heard that or they walking around your organization, maybe even to your customers, maybe even to their family members and teaching them what they learned. Today we had a, this is a Thursday as I'm recording this and had a round table event. I challenged the members of the round table. It's are you taking this information that we're learning in this book and you're just digesting yourself or are you taking the time to go share it with others and maybe walk through it with them? This is what I've learned just as much as listening to this podcast. It's when we teach others that we learn so much more. When I come here and I'm prepared and have these interviews and these conversations, and if I'm listening back and I'm trying to share with you, I know this, I'm learning it, in such a deeper level, just like John shared about when he led the Bible study. To me, that was an impactful part of my life. I hope you're able to take this information. Write down a few notes. If it's one, if it's seven, that's fine. Just go and share and find somebody in your life that you can model it to. You can teach it to. I know that's, what's going to have an impact in your life and lead you down the path of being an impact driven leader. Because my goal, my desire is to help other leaders get healthy too. That's why I'm here. That's why I show up. I thank you for listening in again. I'd love for you to leave a rating. Let me know how I'm doing. Subscribe and review. I'd be so appreciative. And share this with someone else, someone else that maybe you can have a conversation with about building the best, about creating those elements of your organization that really help everyone get better. Thanks for listening in and I'll catch you next time.