IDL84 Season 2: What To Do Next Jeff Henderson

How does the 24-hour rule help you to not get stuck? Do you know how your employees feel about working in your company? Can your side hustles be clues of what you can pursue next?

Jeff is the author of two incredible books, Know What You’re For and What To Do Next. He was also one of the first guests on the IDL podcast, and together we break down What To Do Next, the next book for the IDL book club. Jeff explains how the book is both about mentorship, but it’s also about what happens when your career reaches a crossroads, and you must face the question of “what to do next”. Equally though, this is a book for leaders, who want to help others answer the same question.

Meet Jeff Henderson

Named by Forbes Magazine as one of 20 speakers you shouldn’t miss, Jeff Henderson has become a trusted voice for businesses and non-profit organizations. His career experience not only inspires groups and individuals but also provides tangible strategies to help them grow. Ultimately, Jeff’s aim is to help organizations build a good name where both purpose and profit thrive.  

His best-selling book, Know What You’re FOR, launched a movement in non-profits around the world and has become a focal point for many businesses.

Jeff has worked for well-known organizations such as the Atlanta Braves, Callaway Gardens, Chick-fil-A and North Point Ministries, one of the largest churches in America. While there, Jeff led three churches over 17 years and helped launch North Point Online, one of the largest online ministries in the world.

Visit his website. Connect on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.

See also, What To Do Next

IN THIS EPISODE WE DISCUSS:

• Do you know where your people are at? - 03:45

• Choose humility and honor will follow - 16:20

• Side hustles are clues - 25:47

• Keep moving forward - 33:30

Even though it may feel counterintuitive to openly discuss your employees’ plans with them, especially if those plans potentially include them leaving the company, you should.

Truly influential and powerful leaders encourage their employees to become the best versions of themselves.

If that version decides to remain in the business, all the better for it.

If that version decides to go elsewhere, then you know you made a genuinely good impact on that person’s life because they can step into their truth more openly because of their time spent with you in your company.

Choose humility and honor will follow

Be careful not to let your identity get wrapped up in the title that you have and the position in which you work because it can cheapen and distract you from the purpose and the goal for which you are striving towards.

Be humble and care for your people while working towards a shared vision.

Side hustles are clues

Side hustles can become clues to more or new passions of yours.

If you have a new idea you want to pursue, or something has been on your mind, see if you can develop a side hustle out of it to explore how viable it could be.

Keep moving forward

Strive to fill a larger space than you already are and keep growing and moving forward.

Your business often thrives when it is given fresh opportunities.

Allow change to come and go because it will take you and your business to new places of growth.

And, if you try something new and it doesn’t work, give yourself 24 hours to mourn it and grieve it, and then try something different so that you do not get stuck.

Resources, books, and links mentioned in this episode:

Visit Jeff’s website. Connect on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.

Visit What To Do Next

Visit The FOR Company website and sign up for FREE resources.

BOOK | Jeff Henderson – What to Do Next: Taking Your Best Step When Life Is Uncertain

BOOK | Jeff Henderson – Know What You're for: A Growth Strategy for Work, an Even Better Strategy for Life

BOOK | Mike Michalowicz – Profit First: Transform Your Business from a Cash‑Eating Monster to a Money-Making Machine

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Email Tyler: tyler@tylerdickerhoof.com

About the Impact Driven Leader Podcast

The Impact Driven Leader Podcast, hosted by Tyler Dickerhoof, is for Xillennial leaders who have felt alone and ill-equipped to lead in today's world. Through inspiring interviews with authors from around the world, Tyler uncovers how unique leadership strengths can empower others to achieve so much more, with real impact.

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You should say, “Hey, my number one goal for you isn’t to stay here. My number one goal for you is to be the best version of you.”

Jeff Henderson

Podcast Transcription

[TYLER DICKERHOOF] Welcome back to the Impact Driven Leader podcast. It's your host, Tyler Dickerhoof. Hope you're watching on YouTube. So many subscribers each week, new listeners. It was funny, I saw a recent listener, Michael Conhi on the weekend, and I asked him, "Oh, which episodes you listen to?" I don't remember. Obviously, that was impactful. I'm sorry, Michael, but thank you for listening in. I love to hear it. Every once in a while, people will say that they listen again. It is with great honor that I'm able to bring guests, like today's guest Jeff Henderson to you all. Jeff, the author of What to Do Next. He also wrote the book, know What You're For. A couple years ago, he was one of my first guests on the podcast, and as he shares today, and I forgot about, he was really instrumental in starting this podcast as we were riding in a bus next to each other and I shared what was on my heart. Here we are, some 80 some episodes later, and thankful for the conversation. We break down his latest book. It is the next book in the Impact Driven Leader book club and I think this is a very timely book. One, it's about mentorship, it's about leadership. Yes, it is, but it's also about your career is at crossroad, what to do next? Or maybe your career's not even at a crossroad. Maybe you're sitting an office and you're looking around the people you work with, and you're thinking, how many people are going to be here in six months, in a year, five years? Maybe all of them, hopefully all of them, or are people going to do other things? That happens every day. As a leader, as an impact driven leader, I believe this, I know Jeff believes this too, we talk about it. The more that leaders, that we can help people navigate that what they want to do next, man, the better team that we have, the better, really, we talk about these things lately, the psychological safety, the more able we are to be empathetic and as we move forward, as Jess shares with you here in a few moments, the leader that thrives today and forward is the person willing to sit down with someone they lead and say, what do you want to do? What do you want to do next? Can't wait for you to listen in. I'll catch you back at the end. We'll recap everything. Again, thanks for being here. [TYLER] Jeff, welcome back. I love being able to see that. [JEFF HENDERSON] Well, thanks for having me back, Tyler, and it's so good to see you, man. I need to see you in person sometimes soon, but since that can't happen, I'm grateful to be able to do this virtually. [TYLER] Yes, it's been too long, but yet, as we just caught up and everything's timing is right and I'm excited to chat with you again because when you were on the podcast last as a guest, you talked about what's next? I asked you what's next? You told me, well, it's actually about what to do next and so I'm excited to talk about this book that's now going to be released. It's going to be a part of our Impact Driven Leader book club here in September. Man, I'm stoked. So good to see you. [JEFF] Well, thank you man. Thank you for, so good to see you and thanks for including this in your book club. It means a lot. [TYLER] Well, as you and I were getting started, and, I have not had a chance to read the book, but I've gone through it. I've gone through all the cliff notes, I've gone through all the pieces and parts, and it's like the take that I have on it is, as a leader, if I can sit down with people and I can understand where they're at, what they're thinking about next, it helps me understand how to best lead them. That's the piece that I want to start with, is explain to those listening and people that are going to read this book, really how that perspective and leadership can empower a leader. [JEFF] It really requires the emotionally aware leader to be able to go, hey, I wonder what our team is thinking in terms of individually, where do they want to go? What do they want to do next? Because those conversations are happening and usually not with the boss. [TYLER] Yes, exactly. [JEFF] It's interesting, as I've talked to leaders about this, they're like, "Ooh, I don't know if I want to hand out your book to my staff, Jeff. What if they leave?" I'm like, "It's actually the counterintuitive approach. You should actually do this. You should say, hey, my number one goal for you isn't to stay here. My number one goal for you is to be the best version of you. I actually think that can happen here, but more than that, I want you to know that I'm for you more than I just want you to be for me." So the leader, whether they use What To Do Next or not, the leader that says, "Hey, I want you to look back on this season and say, this was the best leader that I ever worked for," because he or she truly was for me and wanted to one of the best for me. Those are the leaders counterintuitively, that I think have longer tenured staff that stick with them. The word loyalty, I think we got to be careful with that word. Many times, I see leaders throwing that word around. It's from a self-protection standpoint, but I do think that when you tell your team, "Hey, I'd love for you to stay for as long as you could, but more than that, I want this to be a great learning platform for you. Yes, we got to make some sales, we got to move this company forward but I think we can also move you forward in the process." That's what I've told the teams throughout my career that I've served, "Hey, I don't want you to leave, but if you do, I want you to look back and go, gosh, that was the best development season in my entire life. It got me to where I wanted to go." As a result, we had a lot of long tenured employees that stuck around for a while because we kept creating space for them to grow. One of the things I write in the book is that opportunities flow to those who grow. That's what next is all about. It's not about you need to leave your current employer. It's about how can you keep moving to the best next version of you? Sometimes that will require a move. Sometimes that just requires more learning and for you to continue to add value exactly where you are. [TYLER] I want to go a lot of different ways, and I want to try to, not to overwhelm you and overwhelm the readers, but I'm thinking about I've made some career changes. If I think back where I started, was a nutritionist for dairy cows, and here I am doing this and loving every bit of it. I know you started in marketing and then you went to being a pastor, and now you're doing writing and you're consulting and you're speaking, and you're doing all those things, a lot of different places. As I think about that, the couple career changes there, I think about one, the tenness of thinking about what to do next is, I know that was a struggle for me and I can only imagine that was for you. You and I've talked a little bit about that in the past, like, what happens and there's an absolute step of faith. But I want you to, I frame that up because I want to get you to the place of you thinking back of those positions in helping the listener thinking, all right, if I'm in that season or if I'm leading someone in that season, what questions do I need to ask or what do I need to be watching for so I can be the best leader I can be? [JEFF] You and I met a couple years ago at a John Maxwell leadership event, and John spoke at this event and he said something, I'll put it in the book, it was, I think it's the most pivotal moment after I had left the church to do what I'm doing now. I don't know if you remember this, but John said, I never had a clear vision. I just kept moving forward. I remember thinking, wait, whoa, whoa, what time out? I understand a mere mortal like me doesn't have a clear vision. I mean, what do I know? But John Maxwell, the leadership guru, the guy that's sold more leadership books than the authors, 2, 3, 4 combined, you never had a clear vision? That just was so helpful and freeing for me, because I knew at that point what I needed to do, Tyler, I need to just keep moving forward. I think when people look at your career, they're like, oh, look at all, it just always works for Tyler but if they knew your story and my story, like you know your story and I know my story, oh my goodness. It may look like there was this well-oiled plan but it's not. And that's why I tell people, "Hey, here's the good news, you don't have to figure out the rest of your life. I don't know who can You just have to figure out what to do next to do the very, very best decision. That doesn't mean that you've got to make the right decision. I'm just saying based on what you know, who you know, look at everything and go, okay, I'm going to make the best decision I can and then keep moving forward." As leaders, that that's what we need to do but as leaders, I think we can help people understand, for the people that work with us and that we're doing life with and careers with, hey, look, where do you want to, you don't have to have a five- or 10-year plan, but it's probably helpful for you to know in the next six months or a year, how do you keep moving forward and how do you bounce back and what's your plan for resilience? I think one of the reasons we're in the great resignation as a lot of people have called it, is people went through, one of the byproducts of Covid is people looked at their lives and go, "I'm going to do this, this much and so do I want to spend the rest of my life?" The answer to that is no. So there's been a lot of questions of why, why, why are people doing this? And that's a good question, but I think maybe an equally good question is, okay, well what do you do now and what do you do next? I think helping people figure out that, and it's really a process, people usually think, I'm going to wait to figure this out when the time's right. The time is always right to figure this out. [TYLER] Well, I mean, I look at that to say, if you're not leading yourself, no one else is. We've learned that and this opportunity to say what to do next. I read just an article just the other day. We went through the great resignation, people choosing to say, I don't want to be here. Now the reality is, this year thousands of people in certain industries particularly have been laid off. That's really what is being identified as the next great piece of this, is all right, I got to choose before and maybe I'm not going to choose and maybe it's going to be put on me. That's something that I know you and I can relate to 12, 15 years ago that happened. That's what caused major career change for me. I just wrote this down and I want to know if you would agree with this, and I know you can take and elaborate so much, more people get in trouble not deciding what to do next rather than making the wrong decision. [JEFF] Oh, that's so good. I wish, where were you when I was writing a book? That's awesome. [TYLER] You just need to call me. [JEFF] No, you're exactly right. Well, it's really, what do they call it? Paralysis through analysis. You just, ah, I'm just so fearful of making the wrong decision the wrong decision ends up being no decision. You're exactly right. Your earlier point, sometimes we don't happen to next, sometimes next happens to us. I know this is your podcast, Tyler, but I'd like to ask you, when next happened to you, I mean, take us back, what was your, how did you keep moving forward in these seasons? [TYLER] I think there's two points and as I think next about that, and I love this, Jeff, please ask me questions, it's fun. I didn't have a choice. As part of it, I knew from previous things that happened in my life from the traumatic difficult things to just being on a farm. It's like you just get up and you go. I can remember at that point in 2007, 2008 really was tough for me business wise, is one I had a lot of maturing to do. It's why this podcast is imperative to me, but as well, I had a family to take care of. There was, as much as I got down on myself, I ultimately had to swallow my pride a little bit and say, I need out of this. So I went from having my own nutrition business to where I said, I got to do something different that challenges me, that fulfills me, that doesn't feel difficult. I was willing to take a job. I worked for myself and at that point I was willing to take a job. I did and I'm so thankful looking back because I learned a lot of lessons there that I've used over the last now 10, 12 years. I think part of that is I was always willing to do whatever I had to do to keep moving forward. I didn't know what that meant. I didn't understand that at that point. I just, I had three kids, I had a wife, I had to keep moving forward. I didn't have options. Yes, it wasn't for lack of difficulty and painful times and confidence crushing times but I'm thankful, because I just realized, hey, you just keep moving. [JEFF] Did you, when you took that job, did you think I'm taking a step back or did you think, hey, I got to support my family and this is what I'm going to do, but I'm still going to work for myself down the road? [TYLER] Well, luckily I had the opportunity when I took that, I was able to maintain my business. So it was something where I could keep, I had one thing going and I added something else to it. It was more of I'm adding something that I'm interested in, that I'm good at, that I know I can do and learn and add value to people. But it was also of, I needed more income. So it was like, how do I make this work? I can't leave it all. I took a job that ultimately was probably pretty low compared to what I had previously been but I was willing to augment what I was doing to learn more, to gain a different skill. I think that's something that I never really formalized, but I think, man, that's what's helped me the last 15 years is keep doing that. [JEFF] Here's, I knew you were going to say, I didn't know the details, but I knew you were going to say that because here's the principle that played out there, and this is actually a biblical principle, no matter what people believe in Bible. Humility comes before honor. I'll give you an example. So back in 2008 when the whole housing market fell apart, there's a friend of mine, he would, he made his living going around and singing at churches. He was a really good singer and he would just drop around and he was a singer. So all that church budgets just dried up. So he's out of the job and he's not going anywhere. So I pull into Starbucks one day, go in and he's behind the counter, and I placed this coffee order for the office. He's now having to walk me out and here's this guy that's just incredibly accomplished singer. Again, nothing wrong at all. I mean, I love Starbucks, okay? So I'm a Starbucks fan, and I looked at him and I said, "I have always, always respected you, but I got to tell you, my respect level for you is just off the charts now and God's going to honor the fact that you're doing whatever it takes to put food on the table for your family." That was however many years ago and that's what's happened and look at what happened to you. So in a season of next, I guarantee you, it will bring a season of, it'll bring you humility because from my perspective, I mean, here I am in Atlanta serving these really large churches and now early on when I left, I didn't really go out to parties or anything because people said, what do you do now? I really didn't have a good description, "Well I wrote this book called No Extra Four, and there's two questions I grow your business." As I'm meandering through this description and their eyes are glazing over, I'm like a total failure. So it just robs your identity, or it doesn't rob your identity, it impacts your identity. All of that is just so important but it doesn't surprise me at all to hear your story because when we take a place of humility, honor will eventually follow. Sometimes it takes weeks, sometimes it takes years but the principle is true, humility comes before honor. [TYLER] Man, you probably unlocked something there that I think we can really dig apart. I'm know you've talked about it, part of what I would imagine is the clarifying part of what to do next is, hey, let's establish your identity is not in the career you have right now. Let's focus that back on your purpose. I think it's, you share the story. I went through this, you know what, there might be a time in life I go through it again if those things are changing, where am I, my identity being is too wrapped up into the position, whatever I do, and not the purpose that I have and the ability to serve in what I'm uniquely gifted to do. If we just focused on that, I mean, you're going back to what you shared, which I've been through as well, and people are like, what do you do? You're like, "Hey, this is what I do." Well, how do you do it? "I'm not really sure right now, but this is what I'm made to do and I know the right opportunity will come." You and, I know you laugh at that because I think we both know people that have embraced that, and it's amazing the things they start doing. [JEFF] Absolutely. I had a friend of mine say, "Hey, when you leave and people ask you what you're doing now, it's okay to say, I don't really know, but I'm going to figure it out." Even that was, I was like, oh my goodness, I guess I need to do that but again, there's just something in me and maybe something in all of us that we want to have and this, I wasn't going from one company to the next. That's cool if that happens for people but this is the first time in my life where I thought, okay, I've wanted to go out of my own. I don't know that I'd have what it takes to do it but if I'm not getting any younger, and another mentor of mine, this was so helpful for me, Tyler, he said, I said, you know what, I'm in my mid-fifties. I don't know if you've heard there's a global pandemic going on. I'm not moving from one job to the next. I'm moving from one job to an idea. Should I be doing this in my mid-fifties?" He goes, "Here's the issue." He goes, "What you're doing should be more commonplace but what happens is the older we get the less risk we take because we feel like we have more to lose." He said, "The older we get, the more risk we should take." He shared me this story with Clint Eastwood when he was in his eighties and he was about to, he was playing golf with somebody and he said, "Hey, tomorrow I'm starting a new movie." They looked at him and said, "Why at your age are you doing this?" He goes, "I can't let the old man win." That's what seasons of next do they prevent the old man or the old woman from winning, because you got to keep growing. You got to keep moving. I mean, there are things I know now in these two years that I didn't know before. I've been stretched. I've been so, Tyler you know this, a season of next is so uncomfortable, but discomfort is the price for growth. I just, I've grown more in these two years because this is, and you know this world better than I do because I'm fairly new to it. I've worked with large corporations or large nonprofits, this is the first time in my career I haven't gotten paid every two weeks, like, there's not a paycheck that mysteriously shows up on Fridays in my bank account. I have to go and make something happen or we don't eat. What's happened to me, and I want to ask you this, what's happened to me is that over time that has become, has transitioned from being a fearful part of my life to an exciting part of my life. Now, this is new to me. When you look about, I mean, you've lived in this world as an entrepreneur a lot longer than I have, what was your approach to, and we all believe in recurring revenue, but what was your approach to this? Obviously, with the job that you had, you were getting paid in a methodical claim but as an entrepreneur, how have you wrestled with that? [TYLER] There's a lot of lessons to learn there. Quite honestly, it's one of the greatest, probably I would say, fear sets that people have. I don't know if you remember thinking back, I remember when we were talking in Florida and I could tell that was, oh man, the risk goes if there's anything going to come in. I think back about times, and I just had this opportunity in the last week, and I mentioned this to Kelly, if you aren't willing to bet on yourself, then who will? Or another way is if you aren't willing to invest money, you're going to take, it took you money to start your current business. You had to either set aside enough money to live on or everything you needed to do to start. If you're not willing to do that, then why should anyone buy whatever product or service you have? If I'm willing to take, I'll go invest money into some organization and think, oh, I'm going to get a return or buy real estate or buy something and get a return. Why wouldn't I want to put money on myself? I think that's something that has, I've thought about time and again, and here's what can happen. Here's the risk and. I share this for people listening that maybe are in between or understand that field or maybe don't understand that field is, you can get to a point as an entrepreneur where you have sales that are coming and accruing and you can get blind to that sense of urgency that happens at first meaning, ooh, if I don't continue to innovate and keep growing, I'm going to end up getting stale. And I think that that can happen at times. I've seen that happen in myself in some ways and that is a point to where I think is a great to say, hey, what to do next, because that to me is part of this, I know when our previous discussion, when we were discussing this, a piece of it was the opportunity in this to seek mentorship and to be a mentor for those, to be a mentor for those that are maybe going through what you went through two years ago, Jeff, or for me as I'm talking about this really to talk to people that are going through what I went through 10, 12, 15 years ago. This is something that I experienced and I wonder if you did too, is just by thinking that way, keeps me a little bit there to where it wants me to make sure that I keep moving forward. What am I doing every day to continue to grow, to continue to learn and know that tomorrow I need to do that again? [JEFF] This is why I'm a huge believer in side hustles. That doesn't mean that you have to launch a whole complete business, but it's those side hustles, those experiments that, and some work, most of them don't work, but they lead you somewhere. The question you have to ask is not that it works. The question, I mean, I've launched a few organizations that didn't work, but gosh, I learned so much from what I did. In fact, one of the big components of our business right now is helping business executives with their presentations. I mean, that's pretty much what business people do. At some point they have to give a presentation so our brand promise within one of our businesses is we help make your next presentation your best presentation. Well, this was built on content I created 12 years ago with a side hustle online helping preachers preach better sermons. So all that work that I did 12 years ago, I didn't know that many years later I'd leave and this would be a core component of our business. Now not everything works that way, but it always leads you somewhere. So I'm always trying to figure out what is the true, Cathy who is the founder of Chick-fil-A and one of my mentors, he would say, take advantage of unexpected opportunities. So I had a friend who was launching something online for churches, and it was primarily about giving and he was asking me some leadership questions and I called him the next day and I said, "Are you going to do something about preaching?" He goes, "Yes, but I just, I don't have the content." I'm like, "Well, I do." That created something that we launched, I learned so much from that I'm applying today. So it's those little seemingly insignificant next steps that you water and water and then they can multiply. In fact, because of my Chick-fil-A background, people ask me, "Do you think I should be a Chick-fil-A operator?" I'm like, "I don't know, but here's how I can, how you can find out. Go down the street and apply for part-time job at your local Chick-fil-A. If you don't like working there 10 to 15 hours a week, you are not going to like owning the business but if you fall in love with the business through your 10- to 15-hour part-time job, you're going to love, that's something you should pursue." And I think, back to our earlier conversation, Tyler, we get so stuck by being, I got to figure this out. Hey, maybe figuring out what's next is through some side experiments. From a financial standpoint, one of the first things that Wendy and I did in our marriage is we wanted to climb the money wall. In other words, what I mean by that is we wanted to get financially free. Here we are two single people coming in with our financial stuff and we wanted to get our lives together financially. We went through two financial small groups at our church and it was pivotal for us because we didn't know it. But three years after this, we would be given an opportunity to, actually six years would be given an opportunity to leave Chick-fil-A to help a non-profit here in Atlanta. We had to take a massive pay cut to do that but we were in a position to do that because we had climbed the money wall. One of the things that breaks my heart is when people, they suddenly discover what's next, but they're not in a position to pursue it because they're in too much, much debt. One of the best things for many people is, hey, if you don't know what's next yet and you're in financial debt, let me tell you what your next is, climb the money wall. I talk, I mean, I'm not a financial expert, but I talk a little bit about that in the book and this has been part of your story too. So if you can get there, it's such a gift because when you climb the money wall, what happens is now you take that pressure off and you look out over the horizon and you're amazed at what you can see when that pressure's off your back. [TYLER] I didn't intend to, I don't think it was on the topic base, but Kelly and I did that as well. It was within our first year of marriage, went through a small group and it was the best thing we ever did from a common language point of view. It doesn't mean that there hasn't been difficulties and challenges financially. It just gives us a platform to work from all these years later. I also just thought this, I think it's really challenging for a leader to think about what's best for those they lead if they do not have a fiscal mindset of, hey, how do we make sure this is best managed? I mean, that's what gets a lot of leaders in trouble, is they overlook the financial piece. That could be personal, that can be in business. But I think as you mentioned that is like options are brought on by financial situations. Now sometimes that can be your back is against a wall. You need to figure it out. So, hey, that leads you into a different place or that you have a financial structure point of view to where, okay, now I can go pursue some of these actions. Like yourself, I know you were in a financial place to where you could leave where you were to start your own thing and that opportunity has launched something much bigger. I don't think that can be undergirded enough as a real attribute to stop and think about is wherever you're at from a, in your season of leadership, in your season of just life to say am I doing the things there that are going to allow me to ask the question what do I do next? [JEFF] You bring up a great point too, when, especially if you're married, it's not just you, it's your spouse. Usually, one spouse is more risk-averse than the other. And the one that really loves risk is like, let's go and live in an adventure. The other one's like, let's be fiscally responsible, and both of them are right. So I'd be curious how you and Kelly, how did you manage that early on? [TYLER] Which is it for you? Are you more risk adverse or is Wendy? [JEFF] It's so fascinating. You would think that I would be the one that's like, let's go live an adventure and she's really the one that's more, no, we can figure this out. Because she would, in fact, maybe she mentioned this when we were together a couple years ago but she's told my friends, I don't doubt this. It's all going to work. I'm like, oh goodness, I don't know if it's going to work. I think, well, she believes in me more than I believe in me. So it's really, I think some people would think, oh, Jeff is the visionary, let's go for it. She's really the one that's like, let's go for it. I tell you one thing that a book that we, that we read together was Profit First by Mike and it just talks about how to structure. A lot of businesses they're not profitable and it's not because they can't be profitable. It's because revenue comes in and it goes right out immediately. What he goes is like, "Nope, we're going to set a percentage greater profit and then we're going to start from there and Profit First. Wendy and I read that book, we gave it to our financial guide and we said, this is how we're going to structure our business. And Tyler, we've not had an argument about finances this entire time because we all know we have these certain buckets that all the revenue goes in. Now we can have conversations about like, was this the right expense? But we already know there's the expense line and we already know what's going in. So that's been so, so helpful. But let me ask you though, when you, especially when y'all were early on, how did you manage the risk of conversation with Kelly? [TYLER] It's so funny there because as you mentioned this dichotomy is, oh, it's Jeff, the risk taker but no, it's really Wendy, I think between Kelly and I it's different, meaning there's some things that I'm like, "Bring it on.' And it's usually where I have confidence that all I can really tackle this. Then there's other things where she's like, oh, I'm all into this. I'm like, eh, let's look at all the things. So we find ourselves being stretched there and I think one of the areas that I continue to say that I'm willing to risk is when it's betting on ourselves. I will go in all the time. When I know it's something to learn or grow or whatever else, man, let's do it. Sometimes when it gets beyond that when it's maybe others involved or it's other business ventures, I'm probably a little bit more hesitant and that's where I've continually tried to stretch myself. I'm thankful for that because that's what's created great partnerships and great opportunities and I've been willing to do some of those things. That's maybe not an area where Kelly, she's more averse to that but that's, again, it's been a learning process. I come back to what you said about what Clint said, don't let the old man die, to me, or don't let the old man live. To me that is, if you're stop taking risks because you're afraid of what do I have to lose? I've conditioned myself and I've been thankful for mentors to say, you have a lot more to lose if you don't. As a mentor to others, as a father I look at that to say, if I'm not willing to take risks, how can I coach others? How can I encourage others to say, take the risk? That's something that I do with my own physical body. When I go out and I play soccer with kids and when I'm physically active and all those things, yes, I could tear a hamstring. I could tear an Achilles, I could do those things but I also think I'd rather that than what if I don't? What if I choose not to engage? What if I choose not to live? I think that shows up in a lot of ways again, in business, in relationships and it's not always, I'm not always pushing the threshold of risk, but yet I keep it in mind if that makes sense. [JEFF] Absolutely. Part of it too is, I tell people we need you to fill a larger space than you're currently filling. That just means that keep growing. I could have stayed where I was at the church and it was going great. I mean, even though it was, obviously, I don't know if the phrase Tyler's post-Covid. I don't know what that, where we are, but even back in those days, there's like no indoor gatherings. But even then, it was, things were going really, really great. I could have talked myself into, hey, just, just stick around for a while. But I actually felt like it was better for the organization for me to, let's let somebody else younger than me come in and go do this. Because I don't know that I was going to learn a whole lot. I hate to say it that way, but I just been doing this particular role for 17 years. I've done it in three locations and it was different conditions and all that, but I tell you, I've learned so much in the season far more, and I've had to fill a larger space, meaning that I've had to push back the fear. One of the things I've discovered about fear is that courage is not the antidote to fear. Action is and when you take action, courage follows and helps you fill that space. So, back to John's point, I just had to keep moving forward. There have been some times, like early on there was an opportunity that I was pursuing that actually did not happen and I was really concerned about that but I gave myself the 24-hour rule. I have 24 hours to grieve and moan and complain and the world is unfair and what and all that stuff. Then when the 24-hour rule's up, I had to get up and start making more phone calls and pursuing new opportunities and going, "Okay, I got to keep moving forward because I can't get stuck here." Part of it, too, for me is I would take things and opportunities in early on that I probably don't necessarily have to now, but I had to. I also, I want to make sure that I'm still hungry too. I think humility and hunger go together in some form or fashion. But I also believe in the more people that you serve and the more people you help, the more that's going to actually end up benefiting you in the process too. So all this goes together but people would ask me, how do you eliminate the risk because I've made some really seemingly on the surface risky career moves. I'd go, "Well, I have bad news for you. You can't eliminate risk, but you can shrink it. It's not you're not leaping over the Grand Canyon, but you're going to jump over maybe a mud puddle and you may get muddy and you may get wet, but you're not going to plunge thousands of feet below. You're going to, you may fall down and get wet, but you can get back up easier than, I'm going to quit my job and move and start a company tomorrow." Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, where's the, we got a lot of work to do. That's one of the reasons I wrote the book is, hey, this is your game plan before you do that, if that's what you want to do. [TYLER] Well, you said this a couple minutes ago, and I as you've gone through that, using this comment to that lens is we need you to fill a bigger space. I think about that as you talk about that as like, we need you to fill a bigger space, but we need you to do it long-term, not just short-term. Part of that, doing it long-term is making sure that it's right, making sure that you're making the right decisions, making sure that you're going with the intention of, okay, I'm going to move beyond what I was doing to something more impactful. I think that any time that you set out to do that, it's going to happen. It may not be directly linear. You may step in that mud puddle, but once you're past that mud puddle, it's a whole new horizon but you are willing to do exactly what you said, have the courage to take action, and that's what drives all confidence and that's what drives everything to really fill a bigger space. [JEFF] The opposite is true as well in the sense that if someone is having to shrink down the size to fit a smaller space where they are, and they keep saying, "Hey, don't break out of that box. Don't break out of that box. Just stay here. Don't forget we have health insurance here so stay in that box, stay in that box." What happens is you feel like I can do this because it's easy to shrink down to someone else's perspective, but what happens over time is it crushes your soul. That is not a price worth paying. You can figure out health insurance and you can figure out the other pesky problems that are real-life issues but if you are consistently having to shrink down the size to fit in a box in an organization, and they're not allowing you room to grow, they're not truly for you, number one. Number two, you're going to blow up someday. Your soul's just going to crush and you're going to look back and go, ah, I just, I didn't take a risk. I didn't give it, give it a shot. There's two options, fill a larger space or shrink down to someone else's perspective. Now, if you're in an organization that a leader is truly for you, and they're like, no, no, no, we want you to keep going. I've worked for organizations like that, it's fantastic. That's why leaders can ask the question, what do you think is next for you within the context of the organization but they don't need to limit it to that. They just need to say, what's next for you and how can I help you get to where you want to be? I sure hope it's within our organization, but if not, I still want to help you figure that out. That's the leader that's really going to thrive today. [TYLER] Well, the last two minutes there where you talk about people trying to shrink you to a size or hold you at a place that's not good for anyone. It really isn't. Someone listening in, if that's what you've experienced or you're experiencing, I think you're listening in the right place because there is a lot more for you. Part of that may be figuring out what to do next, because that's not a place that you're going to find fulfillment. At the same point, if you've fallen into that as a leader because you're afraid of people moving on or you're afraid of losing people I come back to what, if people stay the same size? That's going to be a bigger problem than if they choose to go. I'm not sure where I came up with this idea and it was part of my probably evolution and growth and spending time with people like yourself and John, whoever else. But I was excited at a couple times where we did have people and it was time for them to leave our organization. I really embrace this is like, I want to be an incubator, not an incinerator. I want to help people grow and develop. I don't want to do what you just said, burn people by keeping them small. To me, if I do that, I can look back and I can be excited. If I were Andy and I'm sitting here and I'm looking at what you're doing now, Jeff, and yes, you left my organization, but man, you're doing so many great things that are actually fulfilling a lot of needs in our organization. I'm just guessing. We haven't talked about that. I haven't talked to him, but I'm just guessing and that's healthy and that's what I want. That's what I want to see others do. To me, the challenge as a leader to say you're either in that situation or the opportunity is to break out and find that, even if it's by your own making. [JEFF] I think it's an indicator, an indication of good leadership when your staff are getting offers to leave. When I was at Gwinnett Church and we had other churches recruiting our staff and that church world's so weird because they would go, yes, this is for the kingdom. Jeff, thanks, it's the big seat church. I'm like, yes, it's easy for you to say as you hire the staff way. And I would have our leadership team go, "Does that bother you?" I'm like, "Yes, well, let be honest. Yes, I don't want anyone to leave, but it's an indication that we've hired well and we've trained well, and these are great people doing great things." If no one is trying to recruit our staff, that means that something's wrong. This should not be. This is actually a great sign. Now let's do everything we can to keep people but at the end of the day, and I've had people on numerous occasions, they would get an opportunity and I would say, "You know what, I think you got to take this. It's too good of an opportunity for you right now, this situation, this organization." But there are other times I've said, "No, no, no, no, you got to stay, just stay with us for a little while." So it depends on the situation, but there have been plenty of times that I would say, yep, you need to go and I would support you wholeheartedly and will. You want to cheer people on. Again, John Maxwell says the high road, taking the high road, the high road is a toll road and there's a huge price to pay, but it's always worth the price. It doesn't feel like it at the time, but the numerous times that we've cheered people on, and then the organizations that they went to circle back and go, "Hey, just want to let you know, we really, really admired how y'all handled that. It just was high class." Yes, of course. It's what you do. Because again, they're not my people. I never owned them. They were not, they're not my people. They're people that I actually feel like I serve them. I actually, in some ways I feel like I worked for the staff because they were, I told our team at the church, you are my number one customer, not the people that attend this church, you are my number one customer. If I serve you well, we'll take care of the people coming to this church. You're who I work for. So that's why I think you can have these conversations in a healthy way to help people figure out what's next. Because whether we do or not as leaders, the conversation's still happening. We can either be a part of the conversation or be informed of the conversation when it might be too late. [TYLER] Well, that happens and sometimes in challenging places and again, the more you can be ahead of that. There's also a different twist that I just happened to think about is when you talk about, you're serving your staff and you're saying, "Hey, what can I do for you next?" Part of that is maybe recognizing opportunities that as a leader, you didn't see. I come back to the comment that you said from John is, I didn't always have a clear vision, but I was willing to move forward. Maybe for someone listening in, you're listening and thinking, "All right, Tyler, how does this all fit?" Maybe it's going to some of those people around you and saying, what do we do next? Like, how do I help you next because maybe the great idea that you have, that you have this just burning desire to do is actually something our organization can do or we can partner in and that's just going to help us meet that purpose and fulfillment and our mission so much faster than if I just keep looking at only what I can see. [JEFF] Absolutely. I think it's not only for them, it's also for you. Where do you feel like you need to go? What's your next move? That's why I talk about it in the book, I have a personal board of advisors, and I just stole this idea from Jim Collins. He said if Coca-Cola has a board, maybe you and I should have a board too. I thought, you're right, I should do that. So I've done that for a number of years and I have bounced off these ideas from this board, and I have got a green light on these decisions I've made over the years. I wanted to get a green light from them, from Wendy from my in-laws, my mom, my dad passed away a few years ago, and some other mentors to go, "Hey, what do you think what, what do you think I should do?" Sometimes you can get way too many advisors. That's our fear, "Well, I've asked 72 people and one person said, no, so I'm not going to do this." You're not necessarily looking for consensus. You're looking for wisdom and plans fail for lack of advisors, but plans fail when there are wise people looking at the situation and saying, you should go do that. So that's why I think consistently having wisdom, and that's one of the many great things that you have done, is just involving wise people into your life. When you invite wisdom into your life, chances are you're going to make wise decisions. [TYLER] Well, Jeff, I thank you so much for your wisdom. I thank you for, again, joining me and having this fun conversation. It's great. It's great to catch up with you. It's been too long. I need to work on that. I'll commit to fixing that to where hopefully in the next couple months we can get together, make it a deal. I appreciate you so much for again, what you shared, your book, your contributions and being willing, when that question was asked, what do I do next to run into it, even though maybe you weren't sure what it would look like. Because myself and so many other people have been blessed by it. So thank you. [JEFF] Well, thanks Tyler. I'll say this too, pursuing next is this, a lot of it's mysterious. You and I are people of faith, so I think there's a faith component of this, but it leads you to, in our case, a bus ride sitting together in West Palm Beach talking about this. Well, that's not a coincidence and here we are, two podcasts later. It's just part of it. So as you pursue this, I feel like there's a faith component of this that your path will be directed to the people that are like-minded and that can help you and that can move you forward. Then this podcast is certainly an example of that in my mind. [TYLER] Well, thank you. Thanks again for your time. I can't wait to get more feedback on what to do next from listeners, but also members of the book club and round table. So thanks, Jeff. [JEFF] Thank you. [TYLER] I often say to guests what's the podcast going to be like? It's like, oh, we're having a conversation at a coffee shop. Jeff and I just did, and hopefully you gathered that, hopefully you saw that. I loved how he asked me questions, turned the tables. One, I think it adds value. It adds value for hopefully you as a listener to understand the questions that I ask. What things I want to know and grow from. To me, we're in this together. That's part of the book club, that's part of the round table, is we're just learning together. As he talks about, as he shared, if we're continuing to grow every day, man, there's always going to be something next. The moment that we either are forced to play small or choose to play small, the moment that we don't decide what to do next is the day we're in trouble. I think as a leader, our opportunity is to extend that to others, to be constantly encouraging and asking, what are you going to do next? Maybe's, keep on the path you're on. Maybe that's where to go and great, but maybe there's something different. Maybe there's a different idea that you can bring. To me that's exciting because I want to leave with this last point. I think it's probably the words of wisdom that Jeff shared that all of us can take so much from. We need to fill a larger space. If we're constantly looking to fill a larger space, not look at me, I'm taking up more space, but understanding our opportunity to make an impact is to fill a bigger space. If we do that, man, I know you're going to change lives. I know you're going to help others accomplish more. To me, that's what a leader does. That's what a leader focuses on. Thank you for listening in. I thank you for all the ratings, reviews, questions, comments. Those that also subscribe to my weekly email, the comments, the replies, I appreciate it. One, it lets me know where you're at. Two, I appreciate the fact that I can make a little bit of an impact through this, through your life, you listening in, giving me the time to just share a little bit with you, the things that I'm learning and growing through, the experiences that I've had. Thanks again for being here. Until next time, have a good one.