IDL119 Season 3: The Modern Workplace with Tajan Braithwaite Renderos
Did you know that employees leave because of managers more than anything else? How can you reflect on what doesn’t work to find out what does? Can you be proactive about making changes instead of letting an emergency be the catalyst?
I’m excited to be sharing this episode with Tajan Renderos. She is a pioneer in leadership development and coaching. Together we discuss the responsibilities of leadership development, locating the leader, and the workplace culture in today’s society. We ask ‘how is everything changing?’ and ‘what are you doing to change with it?’
Meet Tajan Braithwaite Renderos
Tajan B. Renderos, MPH, ACC, is a credentialed Leadership Development Coach, Trainer, and Founder of Tajan Renderos Coaching, LLC. She helps companies integrate a coaching approach to management for their leaders so they can easily navigate the most challenging parts of people management, such as conflict and tough conversations with ease, utilizing workshops, coaching, consulting, and innovative modalities such as learning collaboratives.
She's managed national training centers, served as a former Director of JSI's Center for Health Equity focused on DEI work, and conducted trainings for companies including Twitter, Cooley, LLP, Intel and others. Tajan has coached hundreds of clients based on her proprietary MCDC framework, and has been featured in Thrive Global, Modern Health, Noomii, and TEDx BU.
Visit Tajan’s website and connect on LinkedIn.
FREEBIE: 4 Strategies to Prevent Work from Following You Home
IN THIS EPISODE WE DISCUSS:
Who is responsible for development? - 03:16
People leave because of toxicity - 07:29
What is your motivation for change? - 10:11
You have to address the data - 18:50
Assess your strengths - 28:04
Who is responsible for development?
Traditionally, companies have known that they need to train the people they bring in with hard skills. If a company hires someone to perform a certain role in the company, then they will have to be trained to do that role.
However, recently, this approach has needed to shift.
“In our complex world, people are demanding more things from their workplaces. So, in order to stay competitive … more and more companies are recognizing and realizing that employee well-being… and personal development has a significant impact on their ability to manage well [and] to lead well.”
As the cost-of-living increases, as people seek development in their careers, and as the world changes, leaders need to adapt their companies and their approach to their employees to retain them.
However, the crucial piece of employee retention is not just about benefits and payment, but also great leadership. People will want to stay and work for great leaders that care for them.
“Overwhelmingly, people are changing jobs because they’re looking for better leadership. ”
People leave because of toxicity
Sure, compensation is important, and many people switch jobs because they are looking for better pay.
However, people are much quicker to leave a job that has a toxic work environment than they are because of lower pay.
If companies and managers do not address their toxic workplace cultures, no amount of money that they try to pay their best employees can get them to stay.
So, if you want to retain and nurture your best employees, you have to create an environment that they want to be in while you pay them what they are worth.
“Folks are leaving for toxic workplace culture issues more so than compensation … across industries … as HR directors are grappling with this data and the reality of it, they have to pay attention to inclusion … to people’s talent[s], [otherwise] they’re going to lose their best talent if they don’t. ”
What is your motivation for change?
For many leaders, unfortunately, everything has to come crashing down first before they take the steps to make positive changes.
“Some folks have to be shamed into it, some folks need everything to fall apart, and some folks are moved by data.”
Do you wait for everything to completely fall apart and you are forced to change before you take a step? Or can you be proactive, look for some issues that can be improved upon, and take the steps to change them?
Look at your employee engagement survey data and look at what makes people leave. Stratify that data and see who leaves for which purposes.
Have a direct discussion with your HR and hiring managers to resolve these issues before you lose any more employees because that cycle will continue until the problem is addressed and resolved.
“There’s so much that can be done in the way of intervention before we start firing people. ”
You have to address the data
You have to find out why people might be leaving your company, and why they are staying. Try to fix what is making people leave and improve what is keeping them around.
Some of the factors that contribute to a toxic workplace culture that drives people to leave include being:
- Disrespected
- Left out or behind
- Not included
Assess your strengths
The people that have a “sink or swim” approach to business are often swimming either because they slipped a life jacket, or just got lucky and don’t know what they’re doing, but they’re doing it well enough to stay afloat.
You need to be firm in your actions and intentions, and that requires knowing what you are good at. You need to know how to swim if you have to get out there and help people in your business, in your community, and in your industry.
“That’s more of a coaching approach that sees the greatness in everyone and helps bind it together to where we become a progressive, high-performing team. ”
Strength assessment is essential not only to find out what you are good at but also to locate your blind spots. Once you know where your blind spots are, you can either get specific coaching to improve that or hire someone to perform that role.
Resources, books, and links mentioned in this episode:
BOOK | Dr. Carol Dweck – Mindset: Changing the Way You think To Fulfil Your Potential
Visit Tajan’s website and connect on LinkedIn.
Watch Tajan’s TEDx Talk.
Impact Driven Workshop over the 8th and 9th of May 2023: www.impactdrivenworkshop.com
Sign up for the roundtable at: hello@theimpactdrivenleader.com
Check out the Practice Of the Practice
About the Impact Driven Leader Podcast
The Impact Driven Leader Podcast, hosted by Tyler Dickerhoof, is for Xillennial leaders who have felt alone and ill-equipped to lead in today's world. Through inspiring interviews with authors from around the world, Tyler uncovers how unique leadership strengths can empower others to achieve so much more, with real impact.
Rate, review and subscribe here on Apple Podcasts or subscribe on Stitcher and Spotify.
There’s so much that can be done in the way of intervention before we start firing people.
Tajan Braithwaite Renderos
Podcast Transcription
[TYLER DICKERHOOF]
Welcome back to the Impact Driven Leader podcast, this is your host, Tyler Dickerhoof. Man, excited to be back here with you. If you're watching on YouTube, starting to display some of my summer color. I change colors. I do. It's good to be, feel healthy. It's just me. I hope it is warm, sunny, enjoyable wherever you're at. Make sure you're dressed well. Take care of yourself, take care of your skin. We get one set. Lovey news. Anyways, thanks for being here. Excited today to share my conversation with Tajan Braithwaite Renderos. She is a leader in leadership development, leadership development and coaching, and she and I got connected and we decided to have this conversation about whose responsibility is leadership development. We start there. We go through there, we create this web, and it's really a great conversation about where we're at today and really, as I've shared with you in a couple past episodes where we find our culture in workplace.
Right now, it's probably what you're dealing with. What you're going through is how is everything changing and what are you doing to change with it or against it. As we summarize whose responsibility is, leadership, development and coaching, there's also something else to hold in mind, is it's also an opportunity that's going to create more for others, more for you, more for anyone else. It's not limited. Just if I learn here or now today in my organization or me personally, it can only be used today. I think the great piece that I've learned is everything stacks. It's like the layered learning mentality that I've shared with you, is everything stacks on each other. So I'd love for you to take this episode and stack it in as well. One more offer, one thing that I do offer besides my round tables workshops is my video series, the four days maximum impact. Click on the link in the show notes where you can grab that. Would love for you to take part in that free video series. Just something I'd like to offer as well to hopefully enhance your learning. Thanks for being here. Listen to this conversation. I'll see you at the end.
[TYLER]
Tajan, so good to see you. I'm excited for this conversation, excited to spend time with you and just hear all your wonderful wisdom. Thank you for being a guest.
[TAJAN B. RENDEROS]
Thank you for having me. It's been great chatting with you prior Tyler, and so I'm looking forward to our ongoing conversation here.
[TYLER]
So just to jump right in the deep end, I've learned this, if you're going to going to get in the water, you might as well, and be over your head, might as well go in the deep end. It doesn't matter how much water's over your head. So let's just jump off. Part of our conversation previously, which stems a lot around your work and coaching individuals, organizations, doing all that stuff, is this question of whose responsibility is development? Is it the individual's responsibility? Is it the organization's responsibility? There was, as I was preparing for that and thinking through it, I thought about myself when I started into the corporate world, hired right out of college. And one of the things that was noted about the corporation I started with is, oh, they do a phenomenal job of training people? That was 20 some years ago. So it's just coming from there forward in this world today that we see where people are being asked to develop in a lot of different ways. Where does that come from? Where does that focus come from?
[TAJAN]
That's a really deep and juicy question with no one answer and many, many ---
[TYLER]
No, there's no, yes
[TAJAN]
So I think traditionally companies have known that they are responsible for training people on hard skills, that if I'm bringing you in to do X, Y, Z thing on an assembly line, I have to train you on that.. As the world has become more and more complex, and as we have evolved as people, it's become even more apparent that in our complex world, people are demanding more things of and from their workplace. So in order to stay competitive and in order to meet your bottom line, more and more companies are recognizing and realizing that employee wellbeing, their mental health and their personal development has a significant impact on their ability to manage well, to lead well, which is going to impact the bottom line and it's going to impact the process, how people feel along the way in the engagement. And as people's values change, as job hopping practices change significantly over generations, companies have to stay at the cutting edge of all of this.
[TYLER]
One of my previous guest, Devin Salvano, he and I got into the conversation that there's 4 million people roughly over the last couple years that have changed jobs every month. It's amazing to see that and one of the things that his work and he noted is that overwhelmingly those people are changing jobs because they're looking for better leadership. As we go through this conversation of skill teaching, and one of the thoughts that I had as you were facing that is I just looked in the last five years, the skills that people needed in a position five years ago changed probably 10 times in those five years. So you think about, oh, we had this training program that was put together and we spent all this money on five years ago that was obsolete really before anyone opened the book. That's the fast pace that we're in and those are hard skills. So when we think about all those factors and why people are changing, is it, as you've seen in your work and your conversations, those hard skills lead into questioning of the soft skills, the "the relationship skills" of leaders to think that, I'm just lost here.
[TAJAN]
Well, I think that there's a lot to be said in terms of how effective soft skills, leadership development programs have been. I think we're still, I think if the field is honest, we're still experimenting and in many ways in terms of figuring out like what's the most effective modality, dosage, et cetera. Nevertheless, folks are recognizing that people are leaving toxic workplaces in ways that in previous generations they may have sucked it up and they may have stayed there. You stay in one place for 30 years, you get a job, you stay there until you retire regardless of the nature of that. We know, I mean, I think Charles Sal and his other colleague did a recent study around toxic workplace culture and the major drivers of it. And folks are leaving for these things. Folks are leaving for toxic workplace culture issues more so than compensation, more so than many other things across industry when you control even for all of that. So as we're, as HR directors are grappling with this data and the reality of it, they have to pay attention to inclusion, they have to pay attention to people management. They're going to lose their best talent if they don't because your best people will leave. They always have more opportunity and are being sought after.
[TYLER]
This podcast is really, it's geared towards people our age, this mid-level, it's like 30's into 40's, this, we are the, as I've described it at previous times, we're the peanut butter and the jelly between the two pieces of bread, the older generation, the younger generation, the boomers, the Gen Z, and oftentimes we're getting squished. The jelly and the peanut butter coming out between the bread and we're like, how do I, going to what you just said, I believe that entirely, people are leaving organizations because they're understanding this is not healthy and this is not where I need to expect that I should work and just put up with it. So that leader that's listening that understands that they're losing people from their team, how would you encourage them to talk to either their board or their senior leaders to say, hey, it's not me, it's you. It's really that. It's like I'm a part of it because if I'm a leader and I recognize it's different, I want to make a change, but it's like I can't do it on my own. So how would you encourage them to do, to bring about change?
[TAJAN]
I think that's an important question and imperative. So it depends on how people are motivated. Unfortunately, many leaders, for many leaders, everything has to come crashing down for them to take action. We saw that with the DEI reckoning that happened in 2020 where things came crashing down for a lot of companies and then they were shamed into taking action to a large degree and all of a sudden, we need a director of DEI and we need to take decisive, massive action on issues that existed the year prior. So for some folks, some folks have to be shamed into it. Some folks need everything to fall apart, and some folks are moved by data. So if you're looking at your employee engagement survey data and you're looking at what's making people leave, and if you're stratifying that by important variables, so if you're stratifying that by race, by ethnicity, by gender, and you are observing that, okay, it's these people in this department that are leaving, so there's a toxic microculture in the organization, then it be, then whoever's your CHRO, it's really their responsibility to then take action on that and then to intervene.
There's so much that can be done in a way of intervention before we start firing people. and that's important. Many people are unaware of how toxic they are and they're spewing all this stuff. There's some people who just have no idea and it hasn't been brought to their attention or performance review systems or 360 reviews are lackluster so people don't know. And even if they do know those things aren't coupled with appropriate leadership development coaching such that they can and be coached if they're coachable. Then after they've been coached, then we can think about moving them into a different role where they can't cause as much damage and or what it might look like for them to have a different experience in another organization. But there's so much in the way of intervention and ideally folks would be moved by the data.
[TYLER]
I think the thought that really strikes me as you share that is it's unfortunate, but I believe it to be realistic, we're not going to see change fast enough. As you laid it out and the understanding of self-awareness, for a leader who's not self-aware, who thinks they are to start building self-awareness takes a, whether it's an implosion, there's an analogy that I have leaders that we need to look in the window, but we need to look in the mirror. When it really goes bad is when somebody throws a rock through the window and it also breaks the mirror. It's only at that moment do we start to say, oh, the entire view that I have on the world is cracked. I need to change. I think we're going to see leaders that refuse. When I say I think it's irrelevant of the generation, it's not indicative, it's more of their style. It's the style that's been adopted and say, oh, that's just way it should be. It's like, no, it shouldn't. I mean that's perpetuated a lot of the toxic elements. Yeah, go ahead.
[TAJAN]
I would add that another driver of change, so yes, there're going to be leaders that will only move when there's crisis. Yep, we saw that in 2020, they're going to be some leaders that are, they are never going to wake up until it's like crisis. That is true. Some folks are going to be moved by the data. They'll see the employee engagement review data and be like, all right, this is terrible, we must intervene. Then there's, there is your Gen Z folks and younger who are really shepherding this era of employee activism, that's like throwing the boomers for a loop where folks are like, you can't expect me to come in and magically do something that you didn't teach me. Like they're demanding in a different way and boomers are like, what? You mean you don't, what do you mean you, what do you, what is this?
So there's some generational pushes as well that are also, all these things together are forcing folks in a direction. The fact that folks like Brene Brown and Adam Grant and Simon Sinek have a job is an indication that there is, I mean, decades ago they may not have a job. Like who was talking about vulnerability in leadership long, I mean, decades ago? So the fact that they even have a job and are gainfully employed and sought after, is an indication that the mindset and the zeitgeist has also moved, which means HR directors are in a different place, which means shared language around this is in a different place. In the same way that like, yoga has become mainstream. It wasn't, and all of these things. So the whole zeitgeist has also shifted. So all these things together have made it such that yes, folks are going to be expecting to be supported in different ways.
[TYLER]
I think there's a concept here is, we look at, right now in our world today, we see tech being challenged from the financial point of view. We see tech in different leaders in tech that are demanding return to office. There's other industries too, but that seems to be the one that is in the focus of the spotlight today. One comment and thought that goes along with what you're saying here is, I don't know if it's necessarily going to be the ultimate profitability of their products and services, which leads to their progress or their demise, but it is the combination of their, financial portfolio based upon how well people perform and show up to work. We see that over the last couple years, the leaders that you talk about during crisis, they embraced it and they said, we need to act different. The world will be forever different.
They have now, companies and organizations growing like crazy because they're doing all the right things for their people and their organizations are being rewarded. Then we have numerous leaders that it's almost every day you can read a new one that wants to revert back to 2018 and before and say, well, we're going to operate like this because that's what we are in. Unfortunately, our world is no longer there, nor will it ever be. And especially the comment that you made is where that workforce that was in 2018 has now is five years older. So you have people that have figured out, Simon Sinek does a great job of this that, you had people that were scared to leave a job because what might happen. Now they're leaving because they understand, oh, I can make it there. I'll figure it out somehow. And you have a younger generation that's like, I'm not going to tolerate it so I don't have to work for you.
[TAJAN]
Absolutely. I can side hustle and I can, I have options in ways that just didn't exist before. So yeah, all of those drivers coming together.
[TYLER]
Which goes back to the initial question of whose responsibility is it for this growth and development and, whether you want to get into hard skills or soft skills, just all skills, whose responsibility is that?
[TAJAN]
I'm of the thinking that it's everybody's responsibility. Let me break that down. I'm of the thinking that there's so much data, there's an overwhelming amount of data that indicates that companies that do pay attention in this regard do better on every level, including their bottom line. We know that people don't leave companies, they leave bad managers. That's not just a euphemism. There's a ton of data that supports that. And companies can look at their own data around why people are leaving or why they're staying and see that. So if you're a business and you care about your profits, that reason alone is knowing that what makes people leave, one of the top five reasons why people leave Includes, is this toxic workplace culture issue. That alone makes it an imperative.
When we talk about toxic workplace culture, some of the mix, some of the drivers in that stew is disrespect, if folks are feeling disrespected, if folks are feeling like there are issues that they can't leave behind at work, if folks are feeling like they're not included. So the salts do a good job of like, they break down that research, all of the factors. So we know that that is true. There's that. There's enough argument from a business perspective, from a people perspective, why organizations need to move in that manner, in that degree. As an individual, if you've moved from being an individual contributor to a manager or a leader, nobody shows up to work wanting to like fail and just like, I'm going to destroy everybody today. Like that's my intention and aim in life. Nobody does that.
By and large, in general, most people care to do well, sometimes they're in the wrong position, sometimes they're doing the wrong things, sometimes they're misaligned but by and large in general, people want to do well. So by providing professional and personal development opportunities, you're supporting that goal, you're supporting them on their teams, you're creating more efficient teams that are having more productive meetings because you've trained them on how to facilitate. You are having better performance review conversations because you've trained them on how to take a coaching approach to these career conversations so direct reports are not feeling frustrated because folks weren't trained on how to do that. Tasks are being delegated because you've trained folks on that skill. Folks know how to have tough conversations because you've trained them on that skill.
You're attending to emotional issues that come with leadership and transitions and promotions. You're attending to imposter feelings. You're attending to perfectionistic tendencies through coaching among organizations that do invest in that, which is going to allow your leaders to show up at the highest level. And by doing all of that what I would say is that in general, folks are hungry for it. If you create the means for it, they're going to derive value. I mean, I would hazard to guess that if you ask any of these middleman companies, coaching companies that are out there, like, do folks find this valuable? Yes, they do. People want help and how unkind is it to see somebody struggling and you have the solution and you leave them there? And people are struggling.
[TYLER]
Well, the great convergence, you go to different parts of the world where there's bodies of water that are converging and it's this twisting turmoil at times. It's just, we're seeing that in business where you have these two powerful forces that are saying, well, I want to learn more. Then there's the other forces saying, well, you should want to learn more. And it's coming, it's like, well, how do I learn more and how can you help me learn more and this other force is saying, well, just figure it out. It's like the ones that can navigate through those waters, the ones that can say, hey, I want to be a part of it because none of what you said was just deal with it. Like, just suck it up, put it away, just deal with it.
[TAJAN]
Sink or swim.
[TYLER]
Yeah, and I mean, in as much as that is a part of our society, there's a place for it. It's done with a lot of comfort and safety that it's okay to make a mistake because you're going to learn and grow from it and we have a culture that is, again, coaching aligned instead of authoritarian where it's saying, well, when you go through that. Great, we're going to do an after action review. The US military, militaries are great for that. It's essential to their operations. They've learned that. Yet we see organizations today that want to almost have this very brash, this very abrasive, this very well, we're tough and we're strong and we just, we don't have to deal with that. It's like, well the reality is you deal with all of that by dealing with it and embracing it and realize it's not going to sink your ship. So then you become stronger and you can say, we are stronger because we care about all these things. We're not stronger because we just choose to bury them.
[TAJAN]
I would add that this notion of like sink or swim, like toss them in, toss them out there into management and they'll sink or swim is, doesn't really work. Because what ends up happening in sink or swim culture is nobody's exact, the folks who do end up swimming, they're getting a lifeboat, they're getting a, they're getting a life jacket from somewhere. They have inner networks in the company that are privileged that allow them to climb up. They have the right social network or they may be self-developing outside. But regardless, this notion of like throw them out and the survival of the fittest is a an old troupe that ---
[TYLER]
Here's what I think about that as we're, as we're going through, that's making me think, it can happen. There's plenty of leaders that have, absolutely, they've been forced to rise to the occasion. One-offs can do that. People can do that. But if you look at an organization that, I was just speaking with a friend over the weekend where we were talking about they have a unit leader who's a phenomenal leader who should actually be a overall organizational leader. The problem is there's no one to replace them. To me that's what happens when you fall under the pattern of we'll just sink or swim. Well, you're going to have some people sink, but you're going to have a lot of people, you're going to have some that swim, let me get that right, but you're going to have a lot of people that sink.
But when you have systems, when you have these, as we're going through processes, which you end up doing I think is you have way more people that swim and you have fewer that sink and the ones that sink, it's okay because they've chosen, ah, I'm not going to sink, I'm just going to go do something else, which is fine, and the swimmers end up becoming repeatable and they grow and they learn. Then you become this leadership development organization. And as the great pundits, the great thought leaders say, no organization has too many leaders. None. Does not happen. But I believe this, if we're falling under the pattern of sink or swim, we will always, always be falling short of having enough leaders.
[TAJAN]
Absolutely. And I agree. You're right. The folks, in sink or swim culture, the folks that are actually swimming are in the minority and many of them were slipped a life jacket somewhere.
[TYLER]
Or they don't know how they're swimming. They're just flowing around and they're moving and they're like, well, you say I'm doing right, which could lead into, this is a great, I guess hypothesis of how many of those sinker, swimmers in that sinker swim culture end up becoming feeling like they're imposters because they don't know. They're constantly every day saying, am I swimming or am I sinking?
[TAJAN]
Yes, a lot of them are. A lot of them acknowledge their privilege around that. So a lot of them are like, hey, I just, I mean, I coach a lot of folks who are like, I just sauntered into leadership because I made the right connections. I was in the right rooms, I schmooze with the right people and I'm here, but I really don't know how to lead. Help. So they acknowledge that too. They know
[TYLER]
Well, and I think that's one of the things that our previous conversation you stressed so much is the first start here is assessing, is knowing what are your strengths? What are you good at? And I think coming back to it only with analysis, going back and using, again this sink or swim and I don't want to beat it too, inundate it too much, but the person that can help that individual that's swimming, and they're swimming gracefully, understand that their best stroke is the breaststroke, so just stay with that one. Don't try to do some of the other ones. Just figure that out. It's, once they figure that on their own and somebody else identifies it, then they can also help recognize the unique greatness in others. I believe and I think what I've seen from you contending that's more of the coaching approach and that sees the greatness in everyone and helps bind it together to where we become now a very progressive, high performing team.
[TAJAN]
I mean ideally, the best leaders do, are able to do that, are able to see strengths in others. Some folks have a really hard time seeing strengths in others and some folks have a really hard time valuing diverse strengths. And so this is where strengths assessments and external facilitation of some of these leadership development programs is essential, so bringing in, I've coached hundreds of folks and what I know for sure is that whenever I'm doing a 360 review, I've never seen a situation where people's self-assessment exactly matches everybody's else's assessment of them. I mean, that's just human nature to have that cognitive distortion of like how I see me versus how everybody else is experiencing me. So in order to improve as a leader, that assessment, that 360 review, debrief through that coach is essential because it's highly likely that you have blind spots.
Your strengths that you take for granted because you just have achieved mastery and it's so easy for you. You're like, Alicia Key's on the piano and that's just easy. Everybody else is like, oh my God, this is amazing. So just even that alone, and then oftentimes what I see is folks weaknesses and errors for opportunity, they're misunderstanding what that is based on the majority's experience of them. And just even given that, you would think that companies would be like, all right, we definitely should do 360s for all of our leaders. That makes sense. This is valuable. Lots of companies don't do them. Lots of companies don't invest in them or think that it's unnecessary or a waste of time but it's really hard to create a leadership development plan without that initial assessment because then you're just moving off of, sometimes you can be moving off of people's distortions.
[TYLER]
Oh, I think you make a point there that is so true that organizations, especially when when budgets get tight, when we have a contractionary environment and they start looking at what's necessary, what's not. You know what, that three day leadership retreat to Sedona it cost us a couple hundred thousand. It's not worth it. We're going to make sure that we have all the tools needed to actually perform in lose sight of actually it was that event that brought people together, especially in a mixed remote in-person workforce, that that event actually where they start having great conversations and ideas are spurred out of. It is realizing that that time is probably some of the most valuable time spent outside of what other things may happen. And we see that, we've seen that in the past. We're seeing it again where organizations are saying, oh soft stuff, that doesn't matter. Even passing it off and identifying as soft, like it's not what's necessary is a misnomer. I was talking to someone earlier today, he's a principal at a school, and we were talking about this, the most impactful teachers, and we stopped and we thought about what was one skill that they had that stood apart. I thought back about the teachers that I had and he talked about the teachers he has in the school. They're exceptional at relationships. And you think about that leadership in this instance as we're talking about is no different. So those leaders that are forsaking growth, as we're saying here for something else, what are they, how are they valuing those relationships? Probably not, discounting them.
[TAJAN]
Absolutely. In the economic environment that we're in now, there's certainly lots of folks that are contracting these kinds of investments and I think it's so unfortunate. So for folks that are thinking that they need to remove a thing from the table completely, I wish that folks would think about how we can downgrade a little bit, like downgrade the Wi-Fi versus just like, and let's cut it completely.
[TYLER]
Let's go back to the Pony Express because our Wi-Fi's too expensive, email and we don't really get them in emails, so we'll just send out letters
[TAJAN]
Because there's still many ways to run decent leadership development programs without it being like the platinum plan. Like, it can be midstream instead of just cutting it. Unfortunately, folks tend to just remove a thing but I wish that folks would consider, and that your listeners out there who are CHROs and have that decision making power and authority consider what a downgrade may look like versus elimination.
[TYLER]
There's one element more that I want to use to wrap up and finish. It's this thought that I have and this belief that I have that too often we're talking again about this leadership development within organizations and whose responsibility and this idea, should it all be internal instruction or should we have external instructors as well, or external programs? I've been in organizations where I think we have all the greatest leaders here, we just need to have all of them trained. While there's value in that, I think what happens is the abnormal gets embraced as normal and it actually takes someone that maybe comes from a different industry, someone that comes from a completely different discipline to be able to come in and interact with people in a far different way that helps them see what they can't see. Based upon your experience, what you've seen in organizations, how has that stood true, or maybe not the case?
[TAJAN]
So the question of whether or not folks can just do this internally alone or whether or not external support is needed, depends. So if you are a Google or a really large Fortune 100 company, it's highly, most of these companies already have their own built in coaching departments, leadership development departments with these skilled folks teaching internally and training internally and coaching internally and running programs internally. Fantastic. Do it internally. That's ideal for it to be sustainable, et cetera. But for a small law firm, for a medium sized company in general who have smaller HR departments who do not have like dedicated L and D departments, training departments to that degree, they're going to need to look externally. And I think in this space where a lot of these coaching companies are growing rapidly, I think it would be important for CHROs, et cetera, to be paying attention to how these folks are evaluating themselves and how deep and broad their interventions are, because I believe, or from the framework that I work from is multi-level.
So there's certain issues that can only be unpacked with a one-on-one coaching session. So for that toxic high performer that is coachable, we're not going to solve that solution in a group workshop. It's going to need one-on-one coaching. So when I'm working with folks, it's always assessment in the beginning because we need objective data to work from one-on-one coaching and or organizational consulting work based on that objective assessment and then we move into the group work where there's mindset work and building on your communication skills, delegation skills and so forth. Then also consulting with the organization around all the systemic factors that's going to make it hard for first time managers to do well. But I think in general, for companies that are smaller that don't have a large L and D budgets internally and or staff that can do this they're going to need to look externally and they're going to make, they should be more critical about what they're getting and whether or not that's effective.
[TYLER]
Well, Tajan, thank you so much. I love this conversation. I love the web that we created and really understanding and defining that it's everyone's responsibility, it's everyone's opportunity,. I would say even beyond that and I believe the organizations, the leaders that embrace, it's simple. It's Carol Dweck's growth mindset, if you embrace that in all areas and support it, you're going to grow and the ones that feel challenged or I guess choose not to, we'll see what happens.
[TAJAN]
They won't grow us fast.
[TYLER]
Yes, yes, they'll be forced to instead of choosing to. I think when you choose to, you always go farther than when you're forced.
[TAJAN]
For sure, certainly.
[TYLER]
Thank you so much for your time. Appreciate it, appreciate our conversations and make sure that in the show notes we'll have everything that where you can see your TEDx Talk as well as everything that you have to offer. Tajan, thank you so much.
[TAJAN]
Sure. Thanks for having me, Tyler.
[TYLER]
As we're in this area of convergence, I mentioned the oceans converging, I was recently on a trip with my wife and they were talking about the waters in the South Pacific where they meet between the Indian Ocean and the Pacific Ocean. It's all this turmoil. Made me think about that and as I described in that conversation with Tajan, and again now, man, that's so much of our world. We have two oceans. We have one ocean that's warm, we have one ocean that's cold, which is going to win? Well, I see that happening in our workplaces as I described. We have leaders that are embracing growth that are saying, hey, let's evolve. I don't think we've moved past the world of many millennials saying, I need a pool table and I need drinks and I need this or that. It's really coming down to how are you helping me be the best person I can be?
I think culturally that's what organizations that are doing great today are doing. They're saying, how can we be an organization that helps people be the best version of themselves? It doesn't matter our industry, doesn't matter, our service or our product. If we can focus on that within the process of delivering the product and service that we have, man, we're going to continue to rise. I believe leaders that embrace that will replace leaders that fight it. It's going to happen now. It's not meaning that we need to just pander everyone. There's a huge amount of accountability there. There's responsibility there if you want autonomy. You can't have autonomy without accountability because autonomy without accountability is a nightmare, yet it is with the vision and the responsibility of leaders that help empower others, that we can accomplish it. It's pretty spectacular when you see it happen. Man, it's exciting, super exciting.
That's what I gathered today from my conversation with Tajan, is the responsibility of everyone. It's everyone's performance. It's having the growth mindset. If we don't have that, let's instill that and let's instill that in our culture in all the different ways. How can we learn? How can we grow? How can we reflect on maybe what didn't work to figure out what does, instead of having this fear mindset of, oh, if I do it wrong, that's just going to hold everything down. It's the law of the lid that John Maxwell speaks about. I hope you got value from this conversation. If you're one of those people like me, I'm in that age, I've been there where you're the peanut butter and the jelly in between the two breads of sandwich, I'm here to help you. That's why I'm here. That's why I want to show up and encourage you and encourage you to rise above it.
What are you doing to grow yourself? How are you helping and inviting those around you to look for a better way? Again, I don't think it means suck it up and bury it. I mean, I think it means having those conversations. How can I get better? Look in that mirror, look through the window, at the assessments. My personal 360 review, as I started on this journey was the greatest thing I ever did to identify, oh, that's not how I want to show up. Thanks for being here. I encourage you to continue to grow. As always, till next time, have a good one.
