IDL129 Season 3: Building a DDO with John Vagueiro
TRIGGER WARNING: This episode contains expletives
What does it mean to be a socially-conscious business? How can you draw wisdom from both parenthood and leadership to take care of and support the growth of those around you? What is a common challenge all leaders face and need to overcome?
My guest today, John Vagueiro is a leader of remarkable heart and passion. It exudes from every word he shares. John is the founder and CEO of Adapting Social, and he shares his story about the challenges and struggles he’s faced, and how they’ve helped make him a better leader.
Meet John Vagueiro
CEO & Founder of global digital marketing agency Adapting Social, John Vagueiro started his business at age 17 to help his struggling family. After three months in the New Jersey winter going door-to-door selling digital advertising services, John received his first ‘Yes!’
Today, nearly 15 years later, Adapting Social serves clients in over 20 countries including Bentley, Ferrari, Columbia University, Compass and RE/MAX. An agency built for entrepreneurs by an entrepreneur, John has worked with one-person startups to Fortune 500-level companies, but his heart remains focused on helping small businesses reach their full potential and thrive.
John openly shares his past struggle with severe anxiety, and is an advocate for mental health. He interviews thought-leaders including Ryan Serhant and Grant Cardone about the realities of entrepreneurship as the host of the Breaking Barriers podcast.
Visit Adapting Social and connect on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn.
IN THIS EPISODE WE DISCUSS:
Be willing to struggle when necessary - 10:55
A common challenge all leaders face - 17:46
Developing your ability to lead - 23:35
Letting your parenthood and leadership influence one another - 36:04
Be willing to struggle when necessary
You won’t be able to have a positive and transformative change in your life without sacrificing some of your comforts and easy ways out.
If you want to succeed, then know that you will have to struggle and be steadfast in seeing it through to the end so that you can – and will – get out to the other side of that goal.
“Live a few years of your life that most people won’t so you can live the rest of your life that most people can’t. So, I knew I had to struggle, so when I was going through it, I was like, “This is normal, this is normal”. ”
John knew that the struggle was part and parcel of his road to success. Therefore, even when things got tough, he knew not to give up unless he thought that another way was better.
Make your choices not based on what has less struggle but what serves your purpose the best while bringing you to your success.
A common challenge all leaders face
“Oh, I don’t want to deal with employees!” Lots of leaders, especially at the beginning of their journey into the business world, feel this way and struggle with the idea of having to manage, run, support, and lead people.
It doesn’t come quickly, and not easily, but it is worthwhile, especially when you realize that almost every single job under the sun is to do with people, and you will be working with other people while helping others.
Therefore, it is in your best interest to learn how to lead.
“It was never [about] building websites, it was about building culture … and if you can focus your job and realize [that] that’s your great opportunity … and leading that, but it takes such a mental shift, to say, “I’m showing up today … not to build other people’s brand but to build the people within our organization that build other people’s brands.” That is [where] your reward comes from. ”
Developing your ability to lead
One of the greatest ways that you can become a good leader is to look at, develop, and heal the struggles that you have in yourself.
For example, John recognized that he had people-pleasing tendencies and he also knew that being a people-pleaser was not going to allow him to be a successful leader.
“I always wanted people to like me, and as a leader, that’s not a good thing, when you care about being liked more than you care about results [is] a big issue. ”
He knew that he had to shift something, so he started to make changes, and it leveled him up much faster.
The way that John did this was to develop a workplace culture that valued growth, and growth means pure – and considerate – but real feedback, without trying to spare feelings or walk on eggshells.
“My team is at that point where we can have really raw conversations and zero offense be taken by it because you’re giving me feedback, and feedback is you putting yourself in an uncomfortable position to better me. ”
Letting your parenthood and leadership influence one another
There are many parallels between parenthood and leadership, and one of the traits that they share is a drive to protect those that you care about from experiencing harm or suffering.
However, as you well know as a successful leader, suffering is part of the journey to success. So, how can you care for those that you love while letting them struggle just enough to develop themselves and hone their skills in the big, wide world?
“I’m setting up my kid so that he’s going to be successful … but no matter what, what I said to my wife the second that we decided to start having kids … “I need Johnny to go through – in his own way – what I went through, but for his journey. ”
Your kids – and your employees – need to do some of the heavy lifting themselves while you support them so that they can actually learn how to do it themselves.
If you never let them suffer, even in controlled environments, then they will never develop or learn. You can hold a loving and firm environment for them to test themselves and their skills, be there when they fall, and encourage them to keep going but don’t do it for them whenever they hit an obstacle.
Resources, books, and links mentioned in this episode:
BOOK | Marshall Goldsmith – What Got You Here Won’t Get You There: How Successful People Become Even More Successful
BOOK | Bob Burg – The Go-Giver Leader: A Little Story About What Matters Most in Business
BOOK | Bryce G. Hoffman – American Icon: Alan Mulally and the Fight to Save Ford Motor Company
Visit Adapting Social and connect on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn.
Connect with John on Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn.
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Sign up for the roundtable at: hello@theimpactdrivenleader.com
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About the Impact Driven Leader Podcast
The Impact Driven Leader Podcast, hosted by Tyler Dickerhoof, is for Xillennial leaders who have felt alone and ill-equipped to lead in today's world. Through inspiring interviews with authors from around the world, Tyler uncovers how unique leadership strengths can empower others to achieve so much more, with real impact.
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My team is at that point where we can have really raw conversations and zero offense be taken by it because you’re giving me feedback, and feedback is you putting yourself in an uncomfortable position to better me.
John Vagueiro
Podcast Transcription
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:00:08) - Welcome back to the Impact Driven Leader podcast. This is your host, Tyler Dickerhoof. If it's your first time here again welcome back. We're glad you're here. Whoever shared this with you, you found it. I'm thankful that you're spending a little bit of time with myself. In today's guest, John Vagueiro, he and I have a great discussion. And on the surface, John, probably not the typical type of guest that you see on this show, but yet he's the exact type of person, the leader who has so much heart, so much passion that it exudes from every word that he shares. You're probably going to hear some more colorful language than you've usually heard in these podcasts. And as I've spoken with others like, you know what? We're going to leave him and we're going to leave it because I want you to, you know, just not be interrupted in this conversation. And there's a few things that I think are really imperative. We get to a moment and John turns the tables on me, and I read something and get a little choked up.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:01:10) - And again, I think that's where when you stop and think about heart passion of a leader and serving others and being the example, and in John talking about the culture that he has created and adapting social and why. And when we discuss that, I think it's really hard not to see the heart and passion and compassion and everything that he shares. And excited to follow up with you. The end again, thanks for being here. Thanks for listening in watching on YouTube. You're a subscriber to YouTube or if you're listening, you want to subscribe to YouTube so you can watch this video. And others go to the impact Driven Leader search YouTube Impact Leader or the link in the show notes. You can grab it all there, whatever's easiest, so I'll catch you back at the end. Wrap this up. Share a few thoughts that really impacted me from this conversation. John, so great to be here chatting with you. Excited for this conversation. We got to know each other a little bit beforehand. And you just started to say, as we were talking about who this podcast is for, the, you know, Gen X millennial leaders that are just trying to figure out what leadership looks like.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:02:30) - And that's a sea of change today. I'd love to know kind of your evolution not only starting businesses but leadership, leading multinational company, all those things that you're doing love to again, hear your perspective and kind of walk us through your journey, and then we'll pick that apart.
John Vagueiro (00:02:46) - Yeah. My listen, my journey, like you were saying before we started, I don't know if we have enough time, but but what I will say is, you know, I'm somebody like, when I was younger. I'll give you like, the, the SparkNotes version. But I was 17, you know, my dad essentially came to me, you know, he was having financial struggles. I'm the oldest of five. And, you know, it was kind of the situation where it's like, you know, we could potentially lose the house and, you know, be in a bad position and was like, oh, shit. Like, can I curse on this podcast?
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:03:16) - Oh, I mean, yeah.
John Vagueiro (00:03:17) - Yeah, yeah. Believe me out. Oh so so anyway, he's like, this is not explicit podcast but but so you know essentially I was like oh, oh oh crap. Like this is not a good position. And so, you know, I was like, what can I do. You know, I'm in high school. I just got my license and like, what can I do? And he was like, you know, listen, if you could just kind of like, you know, pay, you know, help me, whatever. You know, the job was working at Ruby Tuesdays as a busboy at the time was that I was at Best Buy, was a lifeguard on the ocean over here and was like, you know, okay, so I'll just, you know, give as much as I can, you know, whatever. And after he told me, like, there's nothing I can do besides that, like, and he didn't think it was going to help regardless, I just started googling like, what can I do? And fast forward, you know, I found website freelancer like in that search.
John Vagueiro (00:04:01) - And I was just looking. I was like, what can I do to make 70 a year? And this is like forever ago. Like, you know, well over a decade ago, I'm like, we're going to make 70 K here. And I found, you know, first thing was air traffic controller and was like like 70 year olds can't do that. And then the second thing saw was website freelancer. So I started googling a little bit more about it, taught myself how to code. Next thing you know, I'm out there door to door knocking on the East Coast. Obviously in the wintertime it gets real, real rough here. So I'm like door knocking and you know, being in upstate New York College, but literally I'm door knocking. It's freezing. And I remember I had all my buddies with me. I'm like, we're gonna start this business. We're gonna do this thing. And at first it was me, like five dudes. That was like, really good friends with grown up.
John Vagueiro (00:04:42) - And the one guy dropped off after doing it for, like a day or two cold, freezing, not making any money or closing any business the next, the next week it was like three people dropped and it's just me, one other guy. And then eventually it was just me. And I'm just door knocking, door knocking. And eventually this one, one person like gave me an opportunity. He was like, what do you do? And he was he was like the first guy to actually let me talk and not just be like, get out of here. Like, what do you say? Again, this is when energy and solar solar power was like coming out. So he's like, what are you selling energy? I'm like, no, like, you know, I saw your website, whatever. And he's like, come in. So I went in and talk to him. But anyway, long story short, I want to build him a website. And at the time Google Ads was so inexpensive back then.
John Vagueiro (00:05:20) - We're talking like 2000, 7008 ish and like, so I start building this guy website, you know, he tells me, you know, my last guy did it for like $1,500. So if you can do it for a thousand, you know, I'll give you the job was like $1,000 up front, like, for whatever. So I did it, you know, and then he told me, he introduced me to a couple of his friends. But he went on Google started doing some Google AdWords at the time. And next thing you know, I'm popping out like close to like 30 or 50 websites a month at $1,000 a clip. So now I'm like, okay, I'm doing pretty decent. I got my parents out of that position they were in, which was like, the only reason why I did it was like, I just want to do that purpose. Yeah. So it took me off about like a little under like six months to get that sem to that place where it was like they were good.
John Vagueiro (00:06:05) - They were out of that position. I helped them out like, boom, we're good now. And now I'm like, okay, like junior year is coming up for high school. Like, what do I want to do? And the one thing was like to tell people though, is like, I was always in remedial classes growing up. So like there's always like an eight in the room with me and a couple other kids, like they said, had learning disabilities and shit. So think that's why a big message for me is always like when look at that. Because at the time, you know, I had my eighth grade teacher come up to me and be like, hey, John, you know, here's a vocational packet. You're going to high school next year. I really suggest, you know, that you start looking to tech. You're not college material. And so like that was the type of shit that I was always hearing. And again, it was because my own fucking laziness and curse again, sorry, it was my own laziness.
John Vagueiro (00:06:46) - But the whole point though was that like, fast forward, I started this business. I didn't know what the heck I was doing, was bumping into all the guardrails you bump into, and then eventually got my parents out. And now I'm like, I want to keep going.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:06:59) - So I want to kind of dissect a piece. And part of that is one mean, yeah, I grew up family business. I grew up on a farm. Right. And so I understand what that is like. You have to contribute. You have to where there was no choice. And so I want to hear. From you though just the the not only the perseverance to go through the cold to like do it, I get that. Yeah. Still live in cold weather. But yeah, I'm not doing the you know, your buddies leave and you're like, I still have to do this right. The amount of perseverance, but also kind of, you know, as someone I mentioned you earlier, I'm in my 40s.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:07:32) - It's a little different of like, where do you see that world like my generation, roughly my, you know, peers. We were affected negatively. 0708I mean, it kind of really destroyed a lot of our businesses. I lost 25% of my income one day right in that period. And so I want to hear from you kind of that perspective of seeing this new challenge. And yet, oh, I got to just run with this.
John Vagueiro (00:07:56) - Yeah. Well, you know, it was I've always identified that, like, growing up, I had these challenges. I knew my parents had had their own financial hurdles because, again, my mom stay at home mom, you know, after she had her fifth, like her fifth kid. And my dad obviously was the sole breadwinner, right. And so I knew that those things were coming. I knew it wasn't the first time this happened. Oh my God, we have a financial problem. So I knew these things were happening. So I think the difference between me and my friends is like my friends all were doing it because it's cool and fun with me, right? I was doing it because I had a purpose.
John Vagueiro (00:08:28) - And when you look at most of the athletes in the world, like anywhere in the world, right, most athletes come from the projects or come from financial turmoil or family turmoil, and they have to turn it around. And most of the first things that these athletes do is they buy their mom a house, or they buy their parents a house, or they do buy their parents a car. And so for me, I was in that mindset. I was like, I have to help my my four siblings and my mom and my dad like, can't let them go through this. And so it was that it wasn't a matter of like, I'm a big Tony Robbins guy. And, you know, so he always says, if you're going to take the island, you have to burn your boats. You can't leave no plan B. So I was like, all right, I'm doing this. There's no way I'm backing out. And so I did it. And the first few months I'll never forget, I had a conversation with my parents accountant and he was like, oh, I heard you're starting a business.
John Vagueiro (00:09:11) - Whatever. And he's like, how many sales do you got? And I'm like, none. And he's like, how long have you been trying to do this? I'm like a couple of months. He's like, you know, okay. He's like, it's not looking good, man. Maybe you should just focus on something else. And I was like, no way. And he's like, yeah, but he's like, John. He's like, you know, listen. And I'm pretty sure this guy was a Columbia graduate. And he's like, listen. He's like, you know, I know business. I've been doing this for 20 years. If you're doing this and you're like, really trying to help your parents out, like maybe you're focusing all your eggs in the wrong basket. And I just was so at the opposite belief of this guy was unbelievable. And like, again, another big motivator of mine was Steve Jobs. And he always said, you have to be hungry. You have to be foolish because if you're if you're hungry enough, you're going to keep going.
John Vagueiro (00:09:52) - If you're foolish enough, you're not gonna be too smart to quit because it's logic, right? Like, this sucks. I'm freezing. I'm not making any money. Like I'm too logical. I went to Cornell or wherever and like, I know all these people around me are super successful, you know, corporate guys, and they're not doing this like, you know, they have cushiony jobs in corporate America. So it's like, for me, like, I didn't have that option because it was only in high school. So I was like, I couldn't go like, oh, I have a college degree yet. So think for me that the like, like diving into that mindset was there is no choice. Like I'm going to knock until somebody gives me an opportunity and then give me that opportunity. I'm not going to let it. Like I'm not gonna let that slip. And that's what really happened. It was just, no, there was no plan B ever in sight and think you being a father, at that time in my life, I had to step up early.
John Vagueiro (00:10:35) - You know, my parents, my dad also had some alcohol issues and stuff. And so when my time was like ten years old, I was like a father figure to my siblings and like to the point where my parents would be like, hey, you know, your brother is acting up like to me. They would tell me that, right? And I'd be like, okay, well, and I would go handle it. And I love my family to death. Like, they're like the most amazing people, but it's what I needed, right? And think that's why in those moments you look at those things, you're like, damn, why did I go through that? Why am my dad put me through that? Or why was I put in this position? My friends are getting cars paid for them. In high school I had to get a shitty dinger, you know that I had to pay for myself. And. But it was my biggest asset. My mess at that moment in my life became my biggest asset because of it.
John Vagueiro (00:11:14) - So guess in, in in retrospect. So to answer your question, like my mindset was, there is no other option. Like I will 100% do what I have to do. And just looking at people like Tony Robbins and all the people mentioned, like Steve Jobs, you have to struggle before you emerge. And the one quote that resonates with me and I think it answers your question too, is I got this. I printed it out when I was 17 and my, my parents basement that I lived in, and the bathroom and had my ceiling. So I looked at it all the time and it said, live a few years of your life like most people won't, so you can live the rest of your life like most people can't. So I knew I had to struggle. So when I was going through it was like, this is this is normal. This is normal. So yeah, yeah.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:11:54) - One thing that you know, is, well, kind of along those lines is, you know, this spot from going from, okay, I'm doing all this into, oh, I can't do all of this.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:12:05) - Right. Tell me about that moment. Obviously you've scaled your business. You're in multiple locations. You have a lot of people involved. But where was that point? And. How did you deal with that? How did you deal with it? I can't do this all on my own again or so anymore.
John Vagueiro (00:12:19) - Yeah. So for me, it was interesting. I didn't say it like I didn't come into it thinking like, I want to scale and build like this. Like massive business at first. For me, it was like, I'm making, like, a pretty good living. I was making a couple hundred grand and was like, this is great. Like, I have a great life. By the way, in the beginning, I was still living in my parents house was being a cheapo. I'm like, I'm still in Olympia or whatever, you know? So I was kind of like doing my thing. And I think the difference for me was I started to look at like once I once I graduated high school because I didn't want to go to college.
John Vagueiro (00:12:48) - So I graduated high school. I was making some money and I was like, what am I going to do? And I think for me, the difference was like, it seemed so cool to be able to have a team like I wanted this big team. And out of nowhere it just shifted for me where I was like, I just want to have this big team. It wasn't about like help or this or that because I was also just a nut job like at that time, like I would, I would work through the night, I would do all these different things for me was mainly like, hey, I want to have a big team, right? And I was so young and was like, this would be really cool. And to me it was really cool thinking about building a really cool culture. It wasn't about anything else. I wanted a cool culture. I'd worked at different places where there were such toxic bosses that were like the power, like, you know, the power got to their heads and and I just hated those environments growing up in those businesses.
John Vagueiro (00:13:36) - So for me, like, you know, I was like, I want to build a culture where people are so stoked to come to work. Like people love, like working with me. Don't ever say for me, I don't have employees, have team members. We all work together. We're on the same level. And so like, I wanted that, like that's what I wanted. And I think that for me was like, all right, I'm going to build that. It wasn't it wasn't a workload capacity issue. It was like, I want to build a team. Like I have enough money to do that. Like, let's start to do that.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:14:00) - Do you think that was born out of essentially what you did for your family?
John Vagueiro (00:14:05) - I think so, I think so, you know, I think it was it was like I wanted to surround myself, want to help other people. Don't know, think potentially. Yeah. I never really thought of it like that. But maybe I.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:14:14) - Mean, if I, if I stop and hear what you're saying is like, all right, you just want to to me that's a it's a love language of service.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:14:21) - Like I want to serve other people. And, you know, if you're doing that. And to me, what I resonate with that because I want that to I want to have people around me. Not that I can control or or direct whatever, but I want to be in something with other people. I want to go with it together so we can all experience the benefits and the joy and the hardships and the adversities, because I know when we do that together, you know we're stronger, right? You know, together is better, we become stronger. And so that's what I'm hearing from you and just kind of again, wondering, you know, how that continues to drive you.
John Vagueiro (00:14:57) - So it's shifted, man. And I'll be 100% honest. I think one of the things that I learned now, like, I'll never forget this, I was at like a trade show for one of my clients, and I was trying to sell Adapting Social as the trade show because my client was holding it and it was for contractors, and this guy was walking by.
John Vagueiro (00:15:14) - He was in like a guinea t, you know, like wife beater with his girlfriend who's older, probably like in his like, you know, early to late 60s. And you know, he was like walking by and I'm like, hey, you know, you know, want to swing by? Let me tell you about, you know, what we do your website like how we can help you. And he like, was like, listen, he's like when I was your age. He goes, he's like, I had 30 trucks in the road because it got over 100 employees. He's like, got all this stuff going on. And to the world it seemed like I was crushing it. Right? He's like, right now. He goes, I have two guys that work with me. He goes, I have two trucks, and I and I make more money now and have way more peace of mind now than I ever did. And that at that time was like, that guy's an idiot.
John Vagueiro (00:15:55) - Like, what a what a stupid ass. Like, I was just thinking, like, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. Like this guys. And again, I'm young, was like 20 years old now and I'm going to be 32 like I. What that guy said, like, resonates with me to this day because it's like now when you're scaling, right? Like you have way different problems, right? It's like you have culture problems, like people having an issue with, with the other person made them feel uncomfortable or weird. And, you know, there's another person who's like, wow, like, you know, I need to be paid more money. Why might not be paid more, right? It's like, so you just have and then where you scale. So when we hit like 40 or 50 employees, right. I was like, you know, I was at a point where I was like, I don't want any more employees. I was like, over this, right? And again, my my culture, we call it team members.
John Vagueiro (00:16:39) - But what I had to shift in my coach and like the people around me, right, that that were there for me were like, listen, you know, this business, you built it to this point. You're going to keep scaling it, right? Because that's I'm obsessed with scaling it and helping more entrepreneurs. That's what we do. We build, we build their brand and we build the revenue. Like that's our focus point. And so but we need good people like we're a service based business. We need people. Right. So, um, the shifts for me after he said that and the whole concept was like, for me, I've realized that as I've grown, there's a book that I love called What Got You Here won't get You there. Love it. And love that book. You read it? Uh huh. Yeah. Love that book. And so I realized that as I was scaling, I was so focused on all these different things that shifted where was like, oh, wow.
John Vagueiro (00:17:23) - You know, profitability and more client load and more efficiency per team member. And I just went through all these different things that I totally forgot that in the beginning, I just wanted to have a dope culture, like, that's what I wanted. Right? So I had to go back to that and now back in that that equilibrium and that harmony. But I think for me that was the shift of like, okay, want like people. And then you have all these people, you have all these problems and it's like, wow. So, you know.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:17:50) - I think what you're what you're identifying is a challenge so many leaders have, whether it's an entrepreneurial leader who starts an organization, deals exactly with, you know, I remember myself growing up on a farm. There was a reason why the labor force was my parents myself is because my my dad didn't want to deal with employees. And I hear that in so many different businesses, it's like, oh, I don't want to deal with employees. And maybe you have a great team members that are motivated and everything else.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:18:17) - But there comes a point where people in entrepreneurial or in leadership, like my job is no longer what I loved to do. Right. And there's a choice and there's another great book. Bob Berg wrote it in. It's I can't remember the The Go Giver leader now. He retitled it, but it was about a furniture making company. And there's these two brothers, and they started this furniture making company, and all of a sudden they get to a point where they no longer get to build furniture, and they're frustrated and they're upset and realize, now you get to do what you really intend to do, to which you brought back. It's like it was never building websites. It's building culture. And if you can focus your job and realize that's your great opportunity, it doesn't matter what business and leading that, but it takes such a mental shift and I'm sure I'm up today. If I'm thinking about you, I'm showing up today not to build other people's brands, but to build the people within our organization that build other people's brands.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:19:14) - Yeah, that then, is what your reward comes from. And if they do that right, then the finances come from the business. But you again, me iterating that in a way that that's a challenge so many leaders have to wrestle with and understand. What does that mean. So for you, it sounded like you were really open to say, okay, I'm going to focus on that instead of, well, I know how to build websites. I want to do that. I want to be in the business of our business instead of working on building the people of our business.
John Vagueiro (00:19:49) - Yeah, at times I think it's stuck in those in that, in the like in the day to day like that. Yeah, yeah. And got out of the furniture making. Right. And so for me the furniture making to me was like building the vision, continuously sharing that vision, you know, building the team members up, you know, connecting our partnerships with our clients and stuff. And that's what got me back on track.
John Vagueiro (00:20:10) - Listen, there were times I'll be 100% like me and my wife at certain times, like, you know, she's our she's our CFO here. And, you know, she like, you know, there were times where, like, things we had we had challenges before Covid where we had way too many team members. We were trying to build a part of the business that was still like getting off the ground. We were dipping into our savings for payroll and stuff, and it hit a point where we were like, damn, like, you know, we need to really turn this shit around because right now, like, this is not a great position to be in. You know, if we keep dipping into the point where we have nothing left and I know and Tyler, I know so many business owners that do that and totally it took it took the understanding that like, you know, okay, I'm so in these different areas that need to need to be I need to be a CEO and, and not so stuck in these day to day moments and focus on the bigger, the bigger picture items.
John Vagueiro (00:20:58) - And once I did that, like it went from me being like, oh, like, you know, I'm so over doing this, like I'm so over this rabbit hole of like, you know, like being in all these fires and all these issues to like, back into, like our clients literally being obsessed with what we do because we're making them more money. We're building their brands. And that was the biggest shift for me to get back into, like the happiness seat, you know, of, like loving what I do.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:21:22) - Yeah. There's part of the community lead the roundtable. We're in this process right now as we're recording of of walking through grow with others. And there's a point where we're talking about the difference between an expert and a master. So someone looking to achieve mastery, to me, as you're describing, is I'll be the expert at my business, but everything flows through me. The master says, no, I can't be the expert because that's going to limit me. How do I learn what I don't know? That allows everyone else to do what only they can do.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:21:52) - And I think that's so imperative in our growth in development. And it's not saying that, oh, you don't have value. You can understand the business you started. You taught yourself how to code. You did those things because obviously it was an interest and you were had to different than, you know, when you're in eighth grade and you talk about your teachers like, yeah, you know, maybe you should go do something else. Well. What I hear from that is you finally found something. You're like, oh, this is kind of interesting, and I have to do it. I'm convinced people can learn anything once they're there, so it's just choosing to say, okay, now, as a leader, I have to realize my greatest opportunity is not to stand there on the assembly line, but it's to say, how can I walk up and down the line and help everyone else do more and do better? Because someone has to do that for us to achieve more totally. All right. In the middle of this conversation, I just want to take a moment to invite you.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:22:50) - If you're not a subscriber to the Impact Driven Leader newsletter, to go to the impact Driven leader backslash free course, you're going to get the four days to Maximum Impact video series as well. Submit you into my email smear where you can learn more about the impact Driven leader community. So now back to the rest of the episode. So let's talk about this. Some of the challenges you've had through that, through that, you know, you talk a little bit about yourself. It's like I had to pull myself out of that at times because I maybe reverted to that in different tough times like, oh, I need to go back and do more and not necessarily continue the course of I need to lead and drive our culture better. So how have you dealt with that as a leader in growing your own ability to lead?
John Vagueiro (00:23:40) - You know, I think the biggest thing for me was like, I'm a I'm a recovering people pleaser. Right? Okay. That's my that's my that's my that's my saying. I'm a recovering people pleaser.
John Vagueiro (00:23:50) - So because I'm a people pleaser naturally. Right. I always want people to work like to like me. Right. And as a leader that's, that's a, that's a that's not a good thing. Right. Like because when you when you care about being liked more than you care about results, it's a big issue. Right? Think a lot of like a lot of people pleasers that are in leadership chairs go through that and they feel those struggles. That for me was probably the biggest learning curve of all that because it's like, you know, if I had to give you feedback a couple of years back, I'd be like, I would give you the what we call like the bullshit sandwich, right? Where give you like, totally like some really great stuff. You're doing some really bad stuff you're doing, and then it's some really great stuff you're doing again. Right. And so I would literally go through the what we call the sandwiches and like and, and I realized like, damn, like I'm holding my company back.
John Vagueiro (00:24:35) - I'm holding my team back by not giving them real visceral feedback and real feedback. And that's where we shifted. Our culture shifted to we are a dough, right? We deliberately want to grow, right? So we we decide. We declare that we want to grow. We want feedback, feedback. If we're not getting feedback, we're being starved of oxygen. So we shifted our culture to be a developmental organization. And so when we're in positions of like, wow, like, you know, damn, you're like, John, you know, like your shirt today, but dude, your hair looks a little jacked up, man. Like my team is at that point where we can have really raw conversations and zero offense be taken by it, because you're giving me feedback. And feedback is you putting yourself in an uncomfortable position, a better me? So I'm like, damn. Like, we look at it that way because our culture, our vibe is a better me and a better use, a better us.
John Vagueiro (00:25:27) - And so we want to help each other there. So that to me, developing that, like with, with our team and in our culture was the hardest thing because feedback from childhood on has always been a bad thing. Like, why are you telling me that stuff? Like, I don't want to hear that. Like, you see your mom and dad fighting and like, you know, they don't want they don't want those feedbacks, right? Or like if they're telling you, hey, you know, you need to be home earlier. Why are you are you home late? Like you don't want that feedback. So we grew up as children thinking like feedback is not good. Like why are they being so? Why? It almost comes off as like that person's being an A-hole because they're being so raw with you, when in reality they're just putting themselves in an uncomfortable position to benefit you. And so I would say for me, that was like my massive because once we started shifting that everybody could just be radically transparent.
John Vagueiro (00:26:10) - Yeah, we just had different outcomes.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:26:11) - So there's a place where I've learned a lot about that in regard to, you know, just ancient writings that talk about, you know, flattery is not a healthy thing. It's like being honest and being, you know, that's what a good friend does. But I want to ask about the the trust that it took to build that within your culture. Because to me, everything you shared about is awesome. And where it is challenging is, do we have enough psychological safety? Do we have enough trust to where we can have that? And people don't feel attacked and belittled, but yet it's like, no, like you just said, a better you and a better me is a better us. That's what we're aiming for.
John Vagueiro (00:26:51) - Totally. And think we got that. So part of some of the research we did was we, before we introduced this to the team at large, we had we had to do this with my executive team, my leadership team first.
John Vagueiro (00:27:01) - And it was hard. Right. And there are things called red arrow behaviors where what does Tyler do that makes me feel like I can't tell you the truth, right. Is is your body language? Is that your reactions? Like, what is it that you do that makes me say, fuck, I'm scared to tell the truth or have to give him a shit sandwich, right? So we go through that and we have we dissect it with each other and we do. It's almost like a 13 week program where we go through and we share with each other feedback. So like I'll present and say, hey, here's like the known red arrow behaviors that I have and, you know, and here's how it's affected my relationships. So I'm acknowledging, like me being somebody who is aggressive or intensity. You mentioned your carnage everywhere. Like that was me. Like I was like, let's run, let's run. I was a people pleaser. But that wanted to run fast and and so like, we had to build that trust for us where they can tell me that feedback like, John, here's how you make me feel in these situations when I come to you with feedback or here's how it feels when I'm struggling and I come to you and you come back to me with like motivational rah rah, right? And so I had to get all these things and it my, my ego took massive blows but needed it.
John Vagueiro (00:28:11) - So that was the, that was step one of building the trust. Then when we introduced it into the team for. Psychological safety. There is this. And I can't believe that I'm forgetting the person's name. But there is something that happened. I'll paraphrase method, but in NASA, where before a rocket went off, you know that whole story where the one guy knew about something was wrong?
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:28:31) - Yeah, it was about the shuttle that exploded. Exactly. So the challenger shuttle?
John Vagueiro (00:28:36) - Yeah, exactly. And the gentleman knew something was wrong with it. And I don't remember the exact mechanics or whatever was wrong with it, but he didn't have psychological safety. So when he went to his boss and he said, hey, listen, just as a heads up, this thing was, no, no, no, it's good, it's good. We checked it, we checked it. And he didn't feel comfortable enough to go run up the flagpole and say, hey, my boss is an A-hole. He's not listening to this like, I think there's an issue.
John Vagueiro (00:29:00) - He didn't have to that that mental health, that that safety space in his organization. So we showed that whole video and that whole case study that NASA put out after that to build a culture of psychology, safety and psychological safety and and that's that's how we started the journey of feedback through that video.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:29:20) - I think, you know, what pieces of this you talk about. I think that's what a lot of organizations struggle with today is. Too many leaders are afraid. I would call what you just shared is it's their insecurities. And we all have them in the moment that we can address them, identify them, understand how our insecurities affect others. I mean, that's when we can start to really lead people. Until then, it's just this fake dance that people are doing and you're not really sure why it's going on. It's sitting and thinking of situations, relationships currently for me where it's like, yeah, these are hard situations. It's kind of those red arrow behaviors. Like, I get it, I understand it.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:30:00) - Here's what's hard is for someone who maybe is working at it like yourself, you can identify that in relationships, right? Think about someone who's new in their career when you were 20 or you know, when 22, 24. And they're trying to navigate it with all the other things going on in the world, man, it's overwhelming. And that's where they're like, I'm out, I'm gone. I'll go to the next place and we just see this revolving door until someone comes into an environment that's actually healthy. Does it mean it's all, you know, rainbows, cotton candy and teddy bears? No, but it's actually like, I care enough about you going back to what we said earlier. To be honest with you, I need you to be honest with me. And if we can have that man, we're all going to end up in a much healthier, better place.
John Vagueiro (00:30:48) - Totally. Yeah, 100%.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:30:51) - How has that become not only the identifier of your business, but as a way to bring in new team members to say, hey, we care so much about you.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:31:04) - We're devoted to this. I think about a friend of mine, Casey Crawford. They've done that with Movement Mortgage, tremendous culture as well. Based upon we are here to serve our community and serve people and and love on people. And that's what I hear from you. So how much are you using that to differentiate and really help not only with the clients you serve, but outside of that, the families of the team members.
John Vagueiro (00:31:29) - Yeah, man. And so glad you said that, because with us, that's the one thing we identified at this last conference. We fly in our team. We have international team, we have national team, and we fly them in once a year. And we have a big conference to go, 4 or 5 day conference where we have like speakers and all these big people that come in and talk and we train and learn. And that was the biggest thing we had about four of our clients that have been with us for a few years come in and give real feedback in front of our entire team in real life lifetime, like no holds, bar like feedback.
John Vagueiro (00:31:58) - And and we were like a little scared at first. Right? Like but was excited about was like, we don't know what they're going to say, right? We're like, don't tell us. You're gonna say, just come give us the real stuff and we'll take care of it from there. And what I identified when I heard these, these business owners speaking, was that everything they said had to do with how what we're doing is helping them hire more employees, put their kids through college, you know, be able to give back to their communities, whether it's through charity or their own time. And so I was like, guys, you know, at the end of the conference, I went up there like I was Ric Flair freaking screaming. And I was like, guys like what? I just, you know, do you know what I just heard after this whole conference and having our client speak, we don't just serve businesses, we serve families. We serve all these different people. So when you said that really resonated with me, but, um, I think that right there, being the core identity and everybody knowing when they're coming into the company, even new team members like things like that, like, you know, it really comes down to everybody to an extent.
John Vagueiro (00:32:58) - And most jobs ready, they feel like if they're going to be fired, like silently, they're going to be silent, fired or people silently quit and stuff and wrong. That stuff's going to happen no matter where you go. But we're so transparent here that like when people are like, hey, you know, we're going to leave. Like we make it at any of my companies, right? We make it so comfortable. Like, yeah, it's fine. Like, listen, if somebody has to leave and go somewhere, that's understandable. People have different life situations. People have different priorities. People have different agendas, goals. So like we make it like we're going to be just as happy for you. The day you walked into these doors virtually that as the day, the day you leave us because at the end of the day, like we're here now that I have my first child to which is buttered me up to people because it's like you see other humans, and I want people to treat my son with respect and dignity.
John Vagueiro (00:33:43) - Right. And that means if I want that to my son, I have to put that out into the world. Right. So the same concept there. And people know that when we interview people, we're so radical about that. Like, listen, if we're going to let you go, we give people a 60 day notice if we're going to fire you. So you have the ability to go look for jobs, go, you know, do you need to do no pressure? So you're not like just fired one day and have to like figure out like, well, how am I going to pay my rent or my mortgage or whatever? Um, so I'd say those types of feedback and radical transparencies and how we operate that way been a good way for us to like, you know, make people and it takes will tell you, Tyler, it does take time, because for people who have never been in a feedback driven organization where you're getting that like legit feedback, like it takes a while for them to be able to, like have that visceral reaction that this is good.
John Vagueiro (00:34:30) - This is for me, like, this is not them being a jerk to me.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:34:33) - So yeah, there's a there's a book that again, you've read a few books, I read a few books have Book Club, American Icon by Alan Mulally, and when Alan took over at Ford, and that was one of the things that he brought to the culture, first and foremost is we have to be radically, you know. I guess, you know, honest with each other, like what was going on and Ford was losing so much money. And, you know, he says it at some point. It's like, you know what? We love you. We care about you, but you can't work here anymore. So what can we do to find you a place? And it kind of those stories just like what you're sharing to me, that's what a socially conscious business does. It isn't about giving to all these aid situations, and it isn't that it's take care of your people. Yeah. In such a way that you understand they have a life outside of your business.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:35:24) - And I hear that from you. And I think from a leadership adage, and I appreciate you sharing, becoming a father helped you recognize that. Yeah. And there are those elements of being a parent that help you understand, like, oh, I need to be not an angel. I need to be a better person. It's helped me grow personally. So I appreciate you sharing that. One last question that I'm thinking here, you're a product of it. I was a product of of parents that struggled financially being in situations where I had to work. Yeah. Your success, the success my family's had, my children will be different. Your son will be different, and future children will be different. How do you, as a leader, look at him and say, I want him to go through the struggles that I went through, but also then as a leader, make sure that you ensure that the people that you work with are going through enough adversity, that they grow to become stronger too.
John Vagueiro (00:36:21) - Yeah. So are you asking that in regards to my my children or just both?
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:36:26) - All of it. Yeah.
John Vagueiro (00:36:27) - Yeah. So I would say. I'll start. I'll start with. Because to me, I think they're different. Okay. I would say with my with my family, my kids, my son obviously have one right now. But we want we want more. But what I would say there would be I know there's that whole saying or whatever where it's like, you know, you know, you have the guy who struggles and then he, you know, and it's difficult. Times may make hard, man, and hard men make, you know, easy times and then easy times make weak men and the whole story. And it's like I'm setting up my kid so that he's going to be successful. Um, but I'm. But no matter what, though, like what I said to my wife the second that we like, wanted to start having kids was like, I need my. So Johnny is my son was like, I need Johnny to go through right.
John Vagueiro (00:37:18) - And his own way what I went through. But yeah, for his journey. And there's this whole thing where, uh, Jerry Seinfeld was on The Tonight Show, and they were asking him. They go, dude, they go, you know, they're talking about his kids and stuff. And, you know, as his kids spoiled and stuff. And he's like, I have this rule. My kids know this. You know, the first time they ever asked me, they were like in middle school. And they're like, like, dad, are we rich? And he's like, no, I'm rich. You're not rich. And and the one thing for my, for my children like to me like money doesn't motivate me the way it used to. Right? So when people like have I have friends, I have family, I have people who are like, you know, super successful in their own ways. I have success in my ways. The way that I look at success, you know, to me is like, listen, you know, I literally, you know, retired my mom, you know, I help my parents with their home.
John Vagueiro (00:38:11) - Like, those are my metrics. Like, that's how I that's how I compare my metrics. And I want my son to grow up that way. But it's the art of no right. And so when my son is like, hey, you know, I want a new car, I want whatever, like, and I know I can do it like, no, you got to, you got to do it. I'm like, I'm not giving you that. You got to do that, you know? And I think that's a difference for me now. And hearing that no is going to, you know, stir some like, well, I'm pissed at you or, you know, I hate you because like, you know, my friends have all this cool shit and I can't get it. And I know you can get it for me. Right as he gets older and more wiser and. But I'm not going to be that parent refused like so there are going to be things that he's gonna have to do.
John Vagueiro (00:38:52) - Like he's gonna have to buy his first car. He's gonna have to buy the stuff he wants to buy. Like, you know, it's going to have to be on him. Like the chores thing, whatever. Like there's nothing that's going to ever just be like, he's not to understand the actual method. And there's this, there's this. There's this group that's a nonprofit group that I'm going to put him through. But it's financial literacy for kids. Yeah. And it's all different levels. And teach you the teach. Parents like how to make kids understand earning versus getting and and the people who founded this during Covid there are two financial ones. The teacher, you know, this other lady is in the financial game. And she said that she was sitting at the table and her son, like, broke a glass. And she was like, you know, what the heck? Why? Like, you know, that was expensive. And he goes, just buy another one on Amazon. And that mentality is scary because that is true.
John Vagueiro (00:39:42) - Everything just boom, boom boom. And so for me it was like, that's what have to change. They built this whole like education system and platform to teach parents how to how to teach the kids how to earn from, like, literally an infant through, you know, you know, preschool to first grade and grade and all the way through, you know, high school and stuff like that's going to be what I'm doing for my son now for team, for for team. Because I don't feel bad for myself. Right. Like, I would be a fool if I felt bad for myself now looking back, right. Like, but but when people go through their own struggles and journeys like I, I'm not. People know this very well. If somebody's like like my family, like that's an elder or like an older person or like a friend of mine who, like, is older or something and like and just like they don't have them, they're not going to go back on the streets and hit the streets and try to make money like they're in their 70s or 80 or whatever.
John Vagueiro (00:40:33) - Those are people that 100% will open the checkbook and be like, what do you need? I'm going to take care of you. But if somebody's still young and they're still there's being lazy, right? Or they're like going through some tough shit. Listen, like, I'm, I'm a Catholic and I'm religious and I think that God gives like people the opportunities. Life doesn't happen to you, happens for you. Right? So whether you believe in the universe or whatever, it's like, you know, at the end of the day, in those circumstances, me interceding and being like, here's the life, here's the life, you know, here's a safety float. Like it's actually hurting them in some cases. And so. With people. I'm a tough love guy. I'm not a soft love guy. So for me, like, especially in those types of positions, I'm not like the boom life raft. Here you go. I'm going to save you, I got you. Like, if it's my wife every day, I'm doing that.
John Vagueiro (00:41:19) - If it's my son, you know, in some ways, every day I'm doing that, my parents would do anything for them. But it's like people around you, they need to go through their shit. I had to go through. You had to go through it. You're on the farm. You were getting out there. You're in the beating sun. You were doing the things you had to do, right? And it's like for me to step in and stop that for somebody. Yeah. It's not going to help him.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:41:38) - You take it away from him. It's, you know, when we're throwing out life preservers instead of teaching people how to swim, too many people are going to drown. And it's just the reality. It's teach people how to swim. And that's what I hear from you.
John Vagueiro (00:41:50) - So totally.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:41:51) - Man. Good. Well, John, thank you so much. This has been great. Super amount of wisdom, your experiences growing, the leadership examples that you've figured out. I appreciate you being here sharing with me, man.
John Vagueiro (00:42:03) - Yeah, dude, thank you so much. Can I ask you a final question? Yeah. Please. Like to any podcast that I'm on or on my own podcast. Yeah. Which I would love to have you on, by the way. Sure. Um, I like to ask this question. Um, and so someone like yourself who is very leadership driven, you know, obviously you have a great head on your shoulders. You're a hard worker. You have a family. A lot of times we talk about legacy, right. And so for you, you know, I asked this on my show. So I'm giving you a little sneak preview, but, you know, for your children, you know what? What would you want? You know, your youngest, like, if they were out somewhere one day when you're not around and somebody said, what was your dad like? What do you want them to say?
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:42:45) - Um, I'm going to read the Father's Day card he gave me. Oh, sitting here on my desk.
John Vagueiro (00:42:49) - Oh my.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:42:49) - Goodness. Um, and so as we're recording this Father's day was yesterday. Yeah. And this is what he wrote. He's 13. Thank you so much for being my dad. I'm so grateful to be the son of a great leader, friend and father. Thank you so much for teaching me to throw a ball, shoot a basketball, and tie my shoe. Happy father's day.
John Vagueiro (00:43:06) - Dude. Literally chills right now.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:43:08) - Yeah, well, we'll get that. Um, those are the things that I. My mission is, and this is part of where I'm so health conscious, not because I'm a freak about it, but I eat well. I take care of myself. I'm active. Yeah, my dad, who devoted so much work so hard as a as a farming owning business doing those things. Health wasn't and it was a generation to where it's kind of like, oh, you know, you take a pill for that, you'll fix that. I want to be able to when my son is 23, to say, hey, where do we go? Let's do it together.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:43:41) - And to me, that's where I keep trying to lead by example. And that's the legacy of, you know, as he shared, I want him when he's a father that he's teaching his son. Do those things. There's things that, yeah, I wish I was better at. I wish I made it, you know, in some ways a little easier. When I was 13, the responsibilities I had growing up was a lot. Right. Kids don't have that. I wish I was able to put that more on them. Right. But yet that's it's kind of, you know, part of that conversation was hearing how you're going about I mean, your son is young and, you know, it's going to evolve and change in years. But when I look at that and I see that example and it's no different from that, someone who's on our team, you know, a kid that I coach, a kid that I've coached ten years ago, I hope to impart that on them. Yeah.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:44:27) - We're like, okay, that's an example of leadership that if I don't have, in other words, like you talked about having bad examples that were like, yeah, I need to do it better for people. Yeah. I want them to be able to say, even though he was, you know, he had his mistakes, he had his faults, he had to deal with things. He still was constantly driving to say, how can I do better? Right. For other people.
John Vagueiro (00:44:49) - So yeah, man, I love that. That was that has made my whole day. Dude, I'm so glad. I'm glad you read that letter from that card from your son. You know, that's great stuff and that's so amazing. And thank you for sharing that.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:45:00) - Yeah. Well, I appreciate you being here, man. Um, look forward to developing more of this conversation over time. So again, thanks for being here dude.
John Vagueiro (00:45:08) - Thank you man.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:45:20) - Not only did that very last question, when John turned the tables on me and asked me, I'm sure the card for my son as I actually sit here, it's in this stack of cards that I got.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:45:33) - But it's also the nature in which John has understood what's so important about his business things that as we talked about it, he didn't really understand, realize, but yet it's exactly how he leads and why it leads. And there was one comment that he shared and hopefully you caught it. There's there's two elements here that want to the Deo, the delivery development organization. Man, that excites me. I believe that every organization, their role and responsibility is through the development for themselves, the people in their business and anyone outside. That's what we it's every business. And then number two. Is the red arrow behavior. As I looked down at my notes and the 13 week program. Man. How great is that? An organization so focused on saying we need to be real with each other. We have to have those moments where we can be honest and vulnerable and know it's not. To fix anyone, but just to make the most of it. As I sit here right now, the desk that holds up this camera, the desk that I work at on the top of it, it's nice and smooth and it's got a polyurethane cover to it, but underneath it's not.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:46:50) - It's rough. It's not sanded, it's not polyurethane. And every once in a while when I sit down on my desk, depending on the the clothes that I'm wearing, the pants that I'm wearing, there's a few splinters, a few. Things that get into my shorts. And this is what I realize about having that ability within an organization, as John talked about that development. You know, the beauty of the table is not lost because it's sanded and protected on top. It actually makes it way more inviting and usable and purposeful, but yet underneath. Yeah, that's really what it is. It's okay. And as I slide my fingers along and as I'm talking about this and I have little pieces of wood that slide into my fingers, oh that hurts. We can be like that as people and sanding it and putting polyurethane doesn't reduce the viability, the beauty, the quality of this table. What actually does is it invites others in. It's more endearing. And so when I take that lesson from John about the red arrow behaviors and understand how much of our red arrow behaviors are like the underside of this table.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:48:08) - And it takes away from the beauty. And the function. So I'm going to leave you with that thought. Thanks for joining in. Thanks for being here, as always. Two things that I'd love for you to share this with someone else. That they get value, that they see the experiences that John has had, and maybe it inspires and motivates them. And then number two. So this podcast can reach more people. I'd love for you to share, subscribe, review. It's through those reviews that more people get to see and hear from guests such as John. Thanks for being here. Till next time, have a good one.
