IDL131 Season 3: Winning with Underdogs with Gil Winch
Who are the underdogs in your surroundings that you may be accidentally overlooking? Can you stop following common biases and look at people as they really are? What is one of the most important words that defines true leadership?
Welcome back! Today I’m having an awesome conversation with Gil Winch, author of Winning with Underdogs. Gil’s company, Call Yachol, specifically hires people with severe disabilities or criminal records. In our conversation, we discuss the value of hiring underdogs, as well as the most important word in leadership.
Meet Gil Winch
Gil Winch Ph.D. is a social entrepreneur and founder of CY (Call Yachol), a unique 100% Underdog company comprised primarily of people with severe disabilities. The surprising success CY has enjoyed as a social for-profit, demonstrated the importance of sharing CY's unique playbook with other companies who wish to enhance their diversity outcomes.
His book Winning with Underdogs: How Hiring the Least Likely Candidates Can Spark Creativity, Improve Service, and Boost Profits for Your Business (McGraw Hill 9-2022) was written with that purpose in mind.
As a keynote speaker, Dr. Winch has shared the stage with Bill Clinton and others and his recent TED Talk, ‘How We Can Use the Hiring Process to Bring Out the Best in People’, was filmed during the pandemic in 2020.
Visit Gil’s website and connect on LinkedIn.
IN THIS EPISODE WE DISCUSS:
Who are the underdogs in business? - 03:08
Exclusivity might be in your decision-making - 10:36
The most important word in leadership - 16:07
Examine yourself without judgment - 38:36
Who are the underdogs in business?
“I define [the] underdog or underdogs in the workplace as anybody who needs to try harder, if they’re aware of it or not, to get to the same place as other people. ”
Some aspects of being an underdog in this day and age are universal, such as dealing with a disability that people judge you for before they really get to know you, or ex-cons who are rebuilding their life after something in their past.
Both of these two groups are examples of people that have to work harder to get recognized, promoted, or even given the chance to participate.
“Most underdogs don’t even know [that] they’re underdogs. They don’t even know that they have to put in more effort, and some of them would get offended by being called [an] underdog but they are … and some are painfully aware of it unfortunately because they are chronically unemployed. ”
There is no good reason not to employ someone due to a disability that still allows them to work, work well, and contribute their inherent creativity, problem-solving skills, or talents in the workplace.
The issue of chronic unemployment amongst so many people that are fighting against backward mindsets that block them from attaining work should be changed, and it starts with these books and discussions.
Exclusivity might be in your decision-making
Sometimes there’s unintentional exclusivity when someone tries to specifically be inclusive.
“The straightforward part is that basically, corporations have a bouncer at the door … if you’re telling your bouncer, “There are a few other people you can let in”, you are still practicing practical non-inclusion … the only thing you should actually do is [to] get rid of the bouncer.”
How does the information spread throughout a company about who is a viable candidate and who isn’t? What are the criteria or barriers that withhold a certain group of people from applying to work for and with you?
“It happens in the smallest of cues and hints and nods when you hire the right person or the wrong person or you take a chance with a person … can make that country or global phenomenon … it’s always based upon bias.”
The most important word in leadership
“I think that the word you used and that I use often; caring, is the most important word in leadership … and I don’t believe this academically, I believe this as a practitioner. ”
As someone who leads and works with people, you need to care.
“When people feel cared for, not as an asset but as an individual, they will give you everything they have to give. That’s the most powerful motivator you can as a leader give to people [which is] to make them feel that you care for them as individuals.”
The ability to care for and see people for the individuals they are allows them to trust you and feel seen by you, which translates to them wanting to work with you and for you.
The psychological safety that is created through genuine human care and trust is invaluable because it ties people to you in ways that are deeper than money.
There are millions of capable, creative, and talented people that are excluded from the workplace due to unfair and outdated ideas. To care for them not only allows them access to your workplace but shifts the whole narrative.
“I think that there are populations that are out of the workplace just because of pure bias. They don’t lack anything, they’re not worse or better even than anybody else – it’s just the bias that’s keeping them out. ”
Examine yourself without judgment
As the leader of the company or organization, you set the stage. What you say or don’t say, and what you do or don’t do, sanctifies the behavior of the company itself and its employees.
So, sometimes it is valuable to examine yourself – without judgment – to see perhaps if you have picked up habits, ideas, or mindsets that might be inhibiting or limiting the scope of your decisions.
“I think most people view themselves as good people and they don’t want to look at themselves as cruel or uncaring so we build emotional defenses so we can keep an idea of ourselves as saying, “You’ve got to break some eggs to make the omelet, [or] don’t take it personally, it’s just business …” there are so many sayings to help you put aside those pesky feelings of guilt or wrongdoing.”
It takes courage and vulnerability but it is always worth it. Even if the conversation is difficult, it is still worth doing.
If you want to really make a good shift in the world, in your company, or even just in yourself, you will need to have this experience. It will improve not just your life but the relationships that you have with everyone around you.
“Here’s the one thing that you need to find a way [to do] … the closer that you stay to people, the closer that you’re in connection with people actually doing the job [and] appreciating what they’re going through, then you’ll be able to make those decisions and have at least the mind and heart of the people in that decision. ”
Resources, books, and links mentioned in this episode:
BOOK | Gil Winch – Winning with Underdogs: How Hiring the Least Likely Candidates Can Spark Creativity, Improve Service, and Boost Profits for Your Business
Visit Gil’s website and connect on LinkedIn.
Attend the next Ideas on Stage web class
Level Up Your Leadership with the free 4 Days To Maximum Impact Course!
Sign up for the roundtable at: hello@theimpactdrivenleader.com
Check out the Practice Of the Practice
About the Impact Driven Leader Podcast
The Impact Driven Leader Podcast, hosted by Tyler Dickerhoof, is for Xillennial leaders who have felt alone and ill-equipped to lead in today's world. Through inspiring interviews with authors from around the world, Tyler uncovers how unique leadership strengths can empower others to achieve so much more, with real impact.
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I think that there are populations that are out of the workplace just because of pure bias. They don’t lack anything, they’re not worse or better even than anybody else – it’s just the bias that’s keeping them out.
Gil Winch
Podcast Transcription
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:00:08) - Welcome back to the Impact Driven Leader podcast. There's your host, Tyler Dickerhoof and excited to be here. Now I have a treat. Conversation with Gil Winch. Gil is the author of the book winning with underdogs. Hopefully, if you can see that without reflection, if you're watching on YouTube. He and I have a tremendous conversation about a couple, I would say very relevant topics. And this book was written in the last year, but it comes from the work that Gil has done at his own job, call Your Call, which is in Tel Aviv, and they hire specifically hire underdogs, those people with either disabilities or from racial or conviction type backgrounds that maybe aren't employed in other places. The reason why you'll learn why Gil has chosen to employ these people. But one piece that I want to share with you as we get into that conversation is being willing to say, why do we have some of the biases that we have? I share in this conversation about my friend Jo Jo and I.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:01:11) - He's a previous guest. Jo and I got introduced actually a couple of years ago on clubhouse. Jo is paraplegic. Jo is confined to a wheelchair. He broke his neck when he was 1819. You can go back to the episode, listen to that. And as I was reading this book and I was thinking about Jo and he and I have this conversation before this airs. Wow. I hadn't necessarily thought about all the challenges he's had professionally. He's a speaker. He's a wheelchair rugby athlete coach. But yet I thought about the instances where did he get excluded from jobs because he's in a wheelchair. He was a football player. Did football coaching opportunities say, no, sorry, we can't accommodate, I don't know. I pose and ask those questions. Those are the thoughts that came to my mind. And I stop and ask you be preparing you to listen to this episode. Watch this episode wherever you're listening. Who are the underdogs in your life that maybe you're not thinking about, or discounting or understanding what challenges they go through? That's an impactful thought.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:02:21) - I'm going to leave that with you. We'll catch up with the end. Enjoy this conversation with Gil Lynch. Gil, thank you so much for joining me, man. I'm excited to have this conversation. 1I1 thing I want to share is I picked up there's a bit of humor in your book, and I'm hoping that we have that sprinkled in in our conversation. I've enjoyed getting to know you just the last few moments, and I'm a absolutely, I would say, blessed to have your book come across my desk winning with underdogs in order to have this conversation, because I think it is wildly relevant in our world today. And I'm again so thankful to be having this conversation with you.
Gil Winch (00:03:07) - Thank you so much. It's my pleasure.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:03:09) - So for the audience and and maybe for those that obviously you're in Israel, that's where you're based. But yet you have so much context in the United States, whether it's through your family members or just the work you do, would you kind of bring those listening in up to speed who are underdogs, and why is that such a special place in your heart?
Gil Winch (00:03:30) - Okay, so there are two questions there.
Gil Winch (00:03:32) - I'll start with the first. I define underdogs or underdogs regarding the workplace as anybody who needs to try harder if they were aware of it or not in order to get to the same place as other people. And there's a variety of underdogs. Some of them are universal insofar as people with disabilities are underdogs. And every country on the planet X cons are underdogs in every country on the planet. And that's almost 10% of the American adult population. That's a huge group who are more than five times more unemployed than other people. People of color in America need to send in twice as many resumes just to get the same amount of interviews. The gender wage parity gap is still in around 30 something percent worldwide. It's close to 20%. In America. There are many underdogs in the workplace. Some are local. You have different ones in every country, and some are global, like the ones I mentioned. So those are underdogs. Most underdogs don't even know they're underdogs, don't even know they have to put in more effort.
Gil Winch (00:04:39) - And some of them would get offended by being called underdogs. But they are. They need to put in more effort and some are painfully aware of it. Unfortunately, because they're chronically unemployed and everything I do is to try and change the world insofar as these unemployed, chronically unemployed populations and the most the largest and the most hard hit, I think, are people with disabilities, about 1 billion people in the world. And I would guess 70% are out of a job, and there's no good reason for that. And I set out to try and fix it a while ago.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:05:22) - So lead the audience through why that became such a, I guess, a pivotal moment for you that you decided I have to take action here.
Gil Winch (00:05:35) - Well, when I was 40, I. When I was 40, my wife said, go and have a checkup because apparently when you 40 you need to have a checkup. So I did, and I forgot about it, but my doctor did not. And he called me with a concerned undertone in his voice and said, you need to come in.
Gil Winch (00:05:53) - And I said, yeah, I'll make it next week. He said, no, no, no, you need to come in right now. Which is never a good, never a good thing to hear. And I came in right now and he said, you have widespread cancer all over and you'll do a biopsy. But I believe it's a kind of cancer we don't know how to deal with currently. So you should be thinking fast and hard what you want to do with the rest of your life. And to put it briefly, at some point, I decided I don't want to figure out what to do with the rest of my life. I just want to have a really, really long life. And in modern medicine, there's always going to be the first person who lives with this incurable cancer. And I want that slot. And in order to get it, I decided upon two things. I decided I'll bring my body to the best condition I can, so I'll be able to handle whatever cancer throws at me.
Gil Winch (00:06:52) - And the second thing I'll do, even though I was born sort of happy and optimistic, I'll look for a nice, really long term social agenda I can sink my teeth into. And because we're just a regular family, it couldn't be something I had to give money to solve because that's not long term, and I just don't have enough to make any kind of an influence. It would have to be something that I could attack by doing. And three weeks after I was diagnosed, a friend who was paraplegic told me, you know, the most unemployed population in the world are people with disabilities. And when he said it, I said, oh, right. It's when you hear it, it sounds well, yeah, they have disabilities, so they're unemployed. But it sort of stuck with me. And when I went home, I looked into it a bit and I found out a few things that I don't know why I needed to find them out, and they weren't found out before. The disabilities don't explain the huge amount of chronic unemployment that people with disabilities suffer from, because 80% of people, for instance, who are legally blind, have enough sight left to function on a computer while they most of them out of a job.
Gil Winch (00:08:05) - People in a wheelchair. They just save you the the employer, a chair. Why are they out of a job? By and large, nearly all of them. People with emotional disabilities, three quarters of them are compliant with their medication. Why are they all out of a job? It didn't seem that the disabilities had anything to do with the global unemployment of that population. And I figured, wait a minute, I don't know how to solve disabilities, but if it's not the disabilities, it means one thing it's solvable. And there's a mystery there. And the mystery sucked me up. Can I tell you why there's a mystery there? Because. Yeah. Please. Well, it's about 15% of the world. And that means that about 15% of CEOs of powerful companies probably have a kid who's disabled. Why why, why is nothing happened? 1 in 6 ministers of welfare will have a kid or a parent or a spouse who's disabled. Why is this not being addressed so far? Ed? Everybody gets to win from it.
Gil Winch (00:09:08) - I mean, the economically, it's great for everybody. Socially it's great for everybody, for the people, disabilities and their families, which if you figure it's 15% of the world with the families, you're bringing that number up to 25, 30% of the world. It seems like a huge problem, solvable. And yet there's when you look around and you're trying to figure out who's trying to solve it. Pretty much no one. There are the same attempts being done everywhere. People are preparing people who are chronically unemployed to successfully join the job market. It only works on a certain amount of those people and the rest just stick at home rut in their homes. So I realized that I can't figure out how it's not been solved. And I also realized that we've taken as a global society, and each country has done that. We've taken our weakest link, at least medically, and we've imposed upon them to unnecessary, horrific hardships. We've made them the poorest amongst us because of disability. Pensions, unless you're Swiss, are always way below minimum wage and totally isolated them.
Gil Winch (00:10:14) - So the social isolation is probably even worse than the disability and the and the poverty. So I realized then, if I'm looking for something long term to sink my teeth in, this has to be it. And that's that's what got me sort of suck up. And I stopped everything I was doing. And I started doing that.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:10:34) - So one thing that that. Description and how you started your your book. Winning with underdogs is how when we choose to include in our world, we're actually being quite exclusive. And you go into that and I've seen that as I've talked with others, see that first hand that, oh, we want to bring in people with diverse backgrounds, whether it's as you brought up, either it's race, it's religion, it is, you know, ability factor. However we gauge that. We say, oh, we need to increase that metric. But yet usually by doing that we start to exclude certain people within that same mix. And so I'd love for you to kind of share your view on that.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:11:20) - And then as well, let's get into how do we solve this. Because this is the magic. And I'm going to clue the listener in. And and I shared this with you before. Here's what I see magical about this. If we do it for one we do it for all. And it helps everyone. So again, let's go back to that conversation about the exclusion in trying to include that actually creates a bigger problem. Well.
Gil Winch (00:11:45) - There's something straightforward about it and there's something a bit more complex about it. The straightforward part is basically corporations have a bouncer at the door, and the fact that you have a bouncer at the door and now you're telling the bouncer, you know what, you see that population, you could let in a trickle of them, only them leave the others aside, but you still have a bouncer at the door. So if you're telling you a bouncer, there's a few other people you can let in. You are still practicing practical. A non inclusion and and because you have a bouncer at the door and the only thing you should actually do is get rid of the bouncer.
Gil Winch (00:12:21) - And it really intrigued me how large global companies manage. To be non-inclusive because you need some kind of understanding, widespread understanding to get everybody on the same page. Otherwise, some H.R. Person who never heard of were not hiring. Those people might hire them by mistake. So and they don't. So how how does that tacit information spread throughout a company that also, I'm an organizational psychologist by trade. It interested me how that actually happens. And and it happens in the most smallest of cues and hints and nods when you hire the right person or the wrong person or you take a chance with a person, small terminologies can make that a country or a global phenomenon, and it is for some sort of reason, and it's always based upon bias.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:13:26) - Yeah. You know, as I think about that, and I think through experiences and conversations I've had with people is, you know, we create the most diverse communities and that's organizations. That's our friends. When we seek common values instead of general makeup, instead of, you know, you know, saying that I am someone, it's like, hey, I'm only going to surround myself with bold people.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:13:50) - Well, then I'm going to leave out a lot of the world. Now, if I look around my friends, maybe a fair number of them are bald. Well, some of them may be because they hair that doesn't grow like me. Or they said, oh, that's an easier way to just manage your fine. But if I start saying I'm only going to connect or interact with people that look the same and feel the same as me without any values, I'm going to find myself probably very torn because I'm going to surround myself with values, quite honestly, that maybe I don't uphold. But if I'm willing to say, hey, none of that matters. The race, the background, the religion, the ability and ability, if that doesn't matter. And I just start looking at the values, what's important to you? And as you share in this book and as we're having this conversation, caring for people and giving people opportunities is is a value of mine. And as I think about that, and as I'm reading this book and realize there are people in my life that I didn't realize were challenged with this, then, now I have a better perspective.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:14:55) - I have a very close friend who's paraplegic. He ended up being paralyzed as an 18 year old. And as I read this and I thought about, huh, what challenges he has, he had professionally that I've never stopped and thought about because on a values basis, we're the same people. And I didn't necessarily realize the effect of him being in a wheelchair or motorized wheelchair that has affected his professional. Opportunities and it's like, oh wow, now I need to go have that conversation with Joe to say, hey, clue me in here. Because I was blind to it. Because it didn't matter to me, because our values were the same.
Gil Winch (00:15:32) - I often tell people this, try and spend one meeting. You're in the whole meeting, just one. When you're about a foot lower than anybody else, do it on purpose. See if you can make it through the whole one meeting. See if you can make it through an hour, and then maybe you'll get some kind of perspective. What happens to someone who is just sitting on a chair? And by the way, 80% of people with disabilities acquire them along the way aren't born with them.
Gil Winch (00:16:02) - So everybody has a chance to join the group, basically. Yeah, but I want to I want to pick up on something you said, which is so dramatic to me. And it's another thing I just I just don't understand how it just not out there. But I think that a word you use and I use often, caring is the most important word in leadership, the most important word in leadership. If I and I don't believe this academically, I believe this as a practitioner. I manage a few hundred people and most of them are complex people. And I've had my own company before with with able bodied people, regular mainstream people, when people feel cared for, not as an asset. As an individual, they will give you everything they have to give. That's the most powerful motivator you can as a leader. Give to people. Make them feel that you care for them as individuals. And there's a technique of how to do that, and there are things you need to do in order to make that happen.
Gil Winch (00:17:11) - But once you make that happen, you will have the most loyal, productive, engaged team you can think of on the one hand, and on the other hand, if you go to Google Scholar and put on leadership and or management and caring, you won't find anything coming up. You'll find a bit of caring home literatures, and you'll find a bit of caring in in schools, and you'll find caring as an asset. Let's make them let's help the company make the most of them, but not as individuals. And that blows me away because anyone you ask THAtrillionIGHT, that's a hugely important feeling for me. And it doesn't matter if they're employees or in the Army or anywhere else. I need to feel cared for as an individual. And then I'll give you the best I have to give. But it's not even registered as a relevant word to management and leadership, and that really blows my mind.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:18:08) - So we're at a crossroads because we can go very deep in that piece. But I want to give some time. You share in the book and and we've touched on it a little bit, three different areas, the one ending with the conversation we were just having about that caring and about changing a workplace. But I want to just circle back so we make sure we give enough time to the idea of this Dei being transparent and understanding that as much as we try to implement Dei training, going back to what we've said a few minutes ago, we actually make it worse instead of actually better. We're starting to now be exclusive and or segregating in our attempt to be inclusive, and we don't realize it. So I'd love for you to discuss that idea of transparency and and why it's so important for us as people talking about it instead of saying, oh, can I can I say that to say that's what's really happening. If we need more people of different race backgrounds and, and ability in our organization, then we're saying if we actively go in and find those people, we're going to exclude other people. Instead of saying, hey, okay, we understand we need to change the dynamic, but let's just go find people and not worry about who they are.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:19:23) - So talk a bit more about that and your solution to what organizations can do there.
Gil Winch (00:19:30) - So. I think there are populations that are out of the workplace just because of pure bias. They don't lack anything. They're not worse or better even than anybody else. It's just the bias that is keeping them out, which is most most of the populations out there. It's the same with immigrants or with the LGBTQ plus people, or with people of color in America, with different sections elsewhere in the world. It's just a question of bias, but there are people out there. That it is more difficult to employ. It's more difficult to hire them because they demand a certain effort, or they demand you to do things a bit differently to enable them to successfully join the workplace. Now let's forget we live on the world and let's build a different world. Just an irregular one, but similar to ours. And I'll say it doesn't matter who, but there are certain populations that you need more effort in order to employ, but they're all employable.
Gil Winch (00:20:30) - And when I say employable that they can all reach regular productivity. But you'll probably need to put in more of an effort or more time to get them to the regular productivity stage. Right. Who should be doing that? Well, you can say government, but government isn't doesn't see itself as an employer even though they are. I think the large businesses should. The more powerful and larger the business, the more like Spiderman says, the more more power you have, the more responsibility you have. So you need you need to use that responsibility wisely. And what's happening, for instance, with disability inclusion is everybody is busy trying to see if they have enough disabled folk working for them so they can go, no, no, we're good. Thank goodness. We don't have to do anything. I think that's a bit silly. I think it's all about getting people out of their houses, the chronically unemployed, employed. That's what diversity should actually be about. Not counting and hoping that you have enough people, various populations, you don't have to do anything differently.
Gil Winch (00:21:31) - And even if it's a trickle, even if large, large companies did it in a trickle, a few people every year or every month that are chronically unemployed, the world would be a better place. But people are going about it differently. They're saying, you know what? I'm willing to have someone with a disability, man, that position. And I say, that's so nice of you. That's really lovely and charming of you as you're earning all that money and they're sitting at home, it's so nice of you to consider them. I don't think that's the job of large businesses. I think large businesses have a responsibility to the communities they operate out of, and that responsibility is not to leave it to the mum and pop shops who don't have the finances, power or resources to actually do this. That's the job of large businesses. And what ticked me off researching the book and I did an awful lot of research, is I found out that everybody is cheating. Either they're not reporting or they're just downright cheating on on the reports.
Gil Winch (00:22:35) - And and it's amazing to see how and I can give an example or two if you wish, but that's going on that for instance, people are getting 100 score of 100 out of 100 on their disability inclusion going to this huge foundation. And and you know, it's about disability inclusion. So you'd say if a company with 100,000 employees gets 115% of the world are disabled, and they've got to have around 15,000 employees, let's call it ten, just to be friendly disabled employees. But then you find out they have 3000, but they got 100 from this huge, huge, respectable NGO foundation. And I was curious how it's like going to a michelin restaurant and the food is shitty. And you saying to yourself, how how did they get the staff.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:23:34) - Who did they pay?
Gil Winch (00:23:35) - I went and funnily enough, a few weeks ago I went to my first time to a michelin restaurant. But it was, it was. We didn't want to spend too much. We went to a place that used to have a store.
Gil Winch (00:23:45) - They took it away apparently, but when we were sitting there, we kept on going the whole evening. Oh, that's probably why they took it away. That's another reason they took it away. So everybody is cheating on these reports. It's just if you give enough money to the foundation, they'll give you a high school and they give you a high score if you if you sell your products well to people with disabilities. But that's not what it's all about. It's all about getting people into the workplace or chronically unemployed. So people are cheating. And and the funny thing is this when you ask people and there's so many surveys out there, every 70 or 80% of the world think diversity is really important. We're a huge majority. And if you think about it, underdogs are huge minority. All the women who are who are underpaid, that's 50% people. Disability is another 15% or less. If you want to take take out the women ex-cons in America, nearly 10% of the population horribly underemployed. I mean, if you look at it, the underdogs are the majority.
Gil Winch (00:24:45) - In the world. And yet we are constantly left out and and neglected and disregarded and given all sorts of excuses why so many people can't join the workplace. And I find that I find that to be like, not the whole idea, not what diversity is really all about. Yeah.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:25:11) - All right. In the middle of this conversation, I just want to take a moment to invite you. If you're not a subscriber to the Impact Driven Leader newsletter, to go to the impact Driven leader backslash free course, you're going to get the four days to Maximum Impact video series as well. Submit you into my email smear where you can learn more about the impact Driven leader community. So now back to the rest of the episode. One thing, and I think this transitions well, sometimes the best way I think to address exclusion is just be honest with what's going on. And when we try to like, oh, can I say that? It's like, no, we're we're not actively being open to people that you mentioned the biases.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:26:03) - One thing that kind of transitions to the next solution you have, which I think is great, is reserved employment for opportunity deprived for the opportunity to thrive. And I think this is where I think about it. If I know that you have a specific strength, right, you have a talent, you have an ability that you can do, and maybe you have limitations. But I understand your strength. And I'm like, man, if I can put you in place on my team and that's what you can do. Amazing. And I allow other people within the team to do other things that maybe they can do that. Maybe you're limited. You can't do. That's smart. In my world, I like sports, whether it's basketball, football, soccer, whatever. When I look at those sports and I think, how do I put someone in a place they can succeed where they help the team? Maybe other people could do it, but their limitations limit them in their success in other places, but they can excel in that one spot.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:26:54) - To me, that's just smart. And when I look and think about that, you mentioned being wheelchair bound. Okay, I have a desk job that doesn't require a lot of movement. Why not be willing and saying, hey, we have this position. If there's someone that, you know, we're looking for someone that we want to employ there because we know that's what they can do. While that's in some ways exclusive, it's really not. When you understand I'm adhering to their individual ability or strength, it's to me that just makes sense.
Gil Winch (00:27:26) - It's it's so basic to me. For instance, people with cognitive disabilities who are a bit slower right then underemployed or unemployed completely. And usually they need a parent at home, sticking at home with them and not working. Now they can. Most of them can clean tables and wash dishes and do hotel rooms as well as anybody else. They'll probably not do it for 160 hours a month. They'll probably do it for less, but they can do it as well as and I found only one coffee shop chain in the world that says, you know what? When it comes to cleaning tables and dishes, we're reserving these jobs for people who have lesser options, people with cognitive disabilities.
Gil Winch (00:28:09) - And there's one only one chain there in the world doing that. But if everybody realized that's a great job, you can pay them a regular wage. You can get used to seeing them amongst us. They get to leave their homes, their parents get to have a normal life. Why don't we just. And you won't pay anything more than that. Why aren't we doing that? So many companies have chat teams, and you have so many people with hearing disabilities out of a job. If we reserve just a few spots for chronically unemployed people with hearing difficulties in those chat teams, instead of offering things that they can't really succeed at, and then you say, well, given them an opportunity, it's the wrong opportunity. If we just did that because we care about the people amongst us, it's our brothers and sisters and parents and siblings and kids. Why don't we just do the right thing? We do it for parking. How can parking be more important than employment if we all got it? When it comes to parking, right, we serve a few of the best spots for people with limited options.
Gil Winch (00:29:11) - Why can't we do this universally when it comes to employment? And I want to add on something which I didn't before and I think is employment, I don't think it's going to take long until companies become transparent together with the AI and and the movement towards more disclosure. It won't take long for us consumers to actually know that this shoe company doesn't hire ex-cons, and this shoe company does. And then you can have 24 million American ex-cons with their families. That probably brings that up to 50 or 60 million huge buying power deciding, well, I'm going to buy shoes from them and not from them because they exclude people I care about. Once the truth is out there, you'll have these diversity labels I call it on every home page. It will be mandatory. Just like food, you know, 1990 was when food labels became mandatory. Now what's interesting, one minute before that happened, every food company on the planet said our main value is the health of our customers. However, we're not going to tell them what they're eating because it costs too much money.
Gil Winch (00:30:25) - Even though we say that the main value is their health. You might have allergies, suck it up, you might want to lose weight or ever. What can you do? It cost money to put things on every label. And then the law came out and everybody did it. And it's really, really helped. Us consume and eat more healthy and avoid all sorts of difficult things when diversity. Becomes the same. Hits the same track, and you're going to have on the home page of every company, it's going to be mandatory. Who really works for you? Did you have a gender wage parity audit lately? Are there any immigrants working for you? Then the world would be such a better place because consumer power will bear down and cause all the companies that haven't really done anything to date, and most of them haven't to actually scramble because they'll be losing so many customers once the truth is out there and the day is coming, I would recommend actually moving before that happens. And not and not trying to scramble when the shit hits the fan.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:31:33) - Yeah, well. The thing that I, I thought about this a moment ago and you spurred a thought to is, is when we choose to what do I say reserve or direct certain opportunities for people. And one of your last comments really brought this up to me again. We instead of fighting the I'm too good for this job, I'm extremely grateful for this job. And when you employ people on a team, or you put people in a place that they can succeed and win, I believe this from my personal experience too, man, I'm excited about it. I am grateful and I will actually contribute more at a higher level than if I'm thinking, man, I'm better than this. Why am I doing this? I shouldn't be here. I should be doing something better. Part of that goes to putting you in the role first. Now there may be a situation and maybe this is the case. We go back to the coffee shop and say the coffee shop. As you mentioned, they reserve employment for people cleaning tables, but someone walks in and they have every ability in the world, maybe more than what the table cleaner is and said, I want to work here.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:32:43) - Great. You know what you're going to do? Because everyone starts here, you're going to clean tables, but we see you being able to manage this facility. Why are you cleaning tables? So you understand that. So when we hire people and that's what their expertise is that you appreciate it. But I have something so much more in potential for you because of these skills. I'm not going to limit you there and make you prove yourself. I'm going to guide you through the process. To me, if we were to approach it in that way. We now start to have people that are engaged and they're like, yes, I appreciate not only the person that cleans this table and why we're reserving employment for them, but I also see that you believe in me and that develops that culture of caring that you've talked about, which again, I it doesn't matter to me if it's a if it's a racial, if it is a belief, it is a disability ability. If we create cultures of caring, we're going to get more from everyone, even if they're the most able and, you know, talented, whatever it may be.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:33:48) - If we have a culture of caring, we do all the hard things that you've talked about. We'll get more from everyone.
Gil Winch (00:33:53) - And it's very quickly proven if you connect all the dots. We for millions of years provided within a tribe of 50 to 100 people, when we were primates, when we were hominids as humans only until about 200 years ago, the Industrial Revolution. Have we started leaving our homes to work for others who know nothing about us and the best? We're assets. And the figure is that about 70% of the people in the world are suffering emotionally at their jobs, which means that they're not doing the best they could at their jobs because they're suffering emotionally. And people who are suffering emotionally aren't going to can't give you the best they have to give. Because we were, we were we evolved to work within a providing warm atmosphere and everybody would would get more out of it. And I need to tell you, we are we're a call center. Yeah. We are considered extremely professional as a call center because my staff, my managers, my employees stay 4 to 5 times longer than any other place.
Gil Winch (00:35:02) - So they are so professional at this point. We do things better than our actual customers who call to ask us how to do things, because we've been doing it for ten years and they've all turned over five times since then, and I have at least ten staff members who are constantly being people are trying to steal them away to work for like twice as much money, because we took people who seemed to have a certain amount of ability. And we found out that once they got their confidence back, that they have amazing ability and they're amazing at what they do, and they moved forward. And and you can find such diamonds in the rough if you do the caring culture thing and you give a chance to everybody and you reserve some spots because other people say if that's the caring, they show the people. Who don't work here yet, and they're really going to care for me as an employee and it impacts everyone. And then you say, well, if that guy who can barely see can do that, and I'm doing the same thing, I should be able to do it happily as well as at least it pulls everybody up.
Gil Winch (00:36:09) - I've never seen any downside to this. You know, it's like saying to CEOs, you can earn more by just being nicer and creating a nicer culture. And most of them go, yeah, and leave it at that.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:36:23) - They're. There was a quote, there was a piece in your book and I took a picture of actually shared it on social media today. And and this is the comment managers get things done. They conduct behavior and output. Leaders conduct emotions. They make people feel safe, worthy and respected. You used a story, an allegory, an illusion of being on a floor level and having an elevator elevate you as a leader and how that changes your perspective where you lose touch. I want to put that in mind to not only yourself, but the listeners, but say, why did we get to a point of view shared earlier? We used to work with our families. I grew up on a farm. I worked with my family. Right. That makes sense to me. And yet we go to workplaces, or we go to teams and we go to other environments.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:37:18) - And you're like, these people are not nice. Is it that we then decide, oh, that's just the way it is, or that's the difference what needs to happen in business? And my home was just the anomaly. Why do we and going back to your organizational psychology background, like help me unpack that. Why do we feel in our society and business world that is the way to go about it, that if I'm on the elevator and all of a sudden I am just hierarchically, I can see more. So therefore I need to do so with less caring. Why do we do that in leadership?
Gil Winch (00:37:51) - There's actually a very good reason. Okay.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:37:56) - I'm good. I'm excited now.
Gil Winch (00:37:57) - Well, the higher up you go, the more you're faced and the more often you're faced with decision making that is good for the general population or for the company, but can be bad for certain individuals. And as a leader, a high up leader, you are actually supposed to make the decision which will further the company, but not 100% of the people in it, maybe just 99% of the people in it, and 1% of the people in it will now become redundant.
Gil Winch (00:38:31) - You need to make the right decisions for your company. But I think most people view themselves as good people, and they don't want to look at themselves as as as cruel or uncaring. So we build emotional defenses. So we can keep an idea of ourselves as good people saying, well, you know, you've got to break. Some eggs to make the omelet. Don't take it personal. It's just business. There are so many sayings to help you put aside those pesky feelings of guilt or wrongdoing in order to do that. And now that's just natural. And the higher up you climb, and the bigger the company, the more you're going to have to deal with that. And the second thing is, the higher up you climb, the more money you're making, and the more infighting becomes a thing. And if you don't know how to grow thick skin and, you know, look, put your feelings aside, don't even examine them at some point. Just move ahead, plow ahead, climb that ladder, put everything aside.
Gil Winch (00:39:42) - Then when you actually need those feelings, you need you need that sensitivity. It's just not there anymore. And it isn't there anymore.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:39:50) - That muscle.
Gil Winch (00:39:50) - You have so much research showing that people in power lose empathy. They can't empathize. They think that the groans of pain are groans of pleasure or excitement. They actually lose certain skills which are very important for us to function as humans. But it's so natural to get into that state when you're climbing the corporate ladder. So they do have a great excuse. But the thing that happens is the people at the top who should be making the culture decisions have lost the capability in Ely and all. You know, circumstances to actually make those decisions. They become blind. It's a blind spot. And the thing about a blind spot is not that you can't see is that you're not aware of your blindness. You're not aware of the fact that you can't see. You're sure that you can. That's what happens.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:40:42) - So to me the the solution to that and it's it's good to understand to me the background, it's context you mentioned and you start off our conversation, I want to know the origin story.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:40:52) - Why are you, you know, have the experience you have from that you start to be able to understand the pitfalls, the potential blind spot. So for you sharing that and again, reading through your book and picking that up is even more reason to say, as leaders, as we develop leaders that we put into place ways to expose the blind spots and say, hey, as you climb the ladder, that's great, you're going to be faced with challenges and you're going to have to make tough decisions. But here's the one thing that you need to find a way, and we will work to you to find a way. The closer that you stay to people, the closer that you're in connection with people actually doing the job, appreciating what they're going through, then you'll be able to make those decisions and have at least the mind and heart of people in that decision doesn't mean that you don't make the decision. Maybe you need to lay people off. Maybe that's what's best for your organization. But instead of just saying, hey, send the email, lay them off, you go down and sit with people and you say, hey, here's what's going on, and I am committed to you, and I'm committed to this organization.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:41:58) - And part of my commitment to you is saying it's not going to work anymore. How can I find you the place where it's going to serve you? Because if my commitment is a leader to the organization, I take care of the organization. But I'm also going to take care of you, and I'm going to care for you. And I'm going to say, how can I help you find the place that is best for you? I've heard of so many leaders doing that, and this is what I have. You heard of many leaders about those people? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think of Alan Mulally. Alan was the CEO at Ford. And in his book, the book about him, American Icon. And he goes through it and he shares it that, you know, he started there and he said, hey, this is the way we're going to operate. And if some of you may choose to, some of you may choose not. And do you know what? I care about you, but you just can't do those things here.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:42:46) - So if you're going to do those things here, you no longer have a place here. I care about you. I'll help you find another place, but it can't be done here. And to me, that's an example of choosing to care more about the people than not. But you have to care about them all. Because if you don't care about the people, then you don't care about your organization because your organization is the people. But yet you have to be willing to have those hard conversations. But doing the hard work. And I think that comes back to why don't people want to hire with either language barriers or, you know, practice barriers, whether that be religion or just general, whatever practices may be? Oh, because if it's difficult, then I have to do hard work and I'm doing this, you know, leading. I'm hiring people. I'm bringing on team members because I want to do less hard work and reality understanding. If you do the hard work early, it gets better for everyone else.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:43:42) - And part of caring about people is hard work, because you can't just send a terse email. You can't just off with me, I'm on to the next thing. You're like, oh, I have to invest my emotions because that's what healthy people do.
Gil Winch (00:43:58) - It's it's very true. In fact, I think people who get to that state when they can't see the individuals and it's very difficult to be happy. It's very difficult to be happy that way. And you'll earn less that way. But unless you actually are active in grounding yourself throughout the upward journey. It's not going to work. And but unless you're really someone extremely special who ends up running forward and writing a book. But most managers I know, senior managers I know of really large corporations. It's lip service. Oh yes, it's all about the people. But you haven't had lunch with the people for the past ten years. You've had coffee made for you. Never made it for anyone for the past 20 years. You don't even remember who the people are.
Gil Winch (00:44:51) - The people are your boardroom. And those aren't the people. So I'm so happy that you've met a lot of them. I haven't well in it.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:45:01) - And I think there's here's the thing, I've met people one, because the values, the people that the work that I do here. But yet part of the work that you're doing and I'm doing is because there's not enough at all. And they're the exception, not the, the norm, not the, the, the centers that, you know, you're either hiring people or the companies you're serving for. You're dealing with day in and day out. It's like, just care for people and they'll do a lot better. It's not that hard. It really isn't. But yet it's a change. And or people think it's hard, often because of the point that you so brilliantly made in so many organizations. To climb the corporate ladder, you need to absolutely put walls around yourself and eliminate any emotion at all. And yet that makes you a very ineffective.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:45:57) - Person, period leader performer. It doesn't matter when we just completely devoid emotions. It is.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:46:06) - Where do you see? The example of call, you call. How do you see that as an example, not only for you to have this conversation, your call center, to have this conversation, but to say, man, it's not that hard. It's a lot of work, but yet it's not that hard when you see all the benefits coming back to you.
Gil Winch (00:46:29) - So I'll tell you how I address it. If I'm sitting in a room full of C-suite people and I want to try and change some hearts and minds. So I'll tell them two things. I'll say usually that and this is true. I don't know if it's been researched, but I totally believe this to be true. Scared people will run faster, but happy people. But scared people can't run for long. Happy people will run almost as fast, but they can run forever. And if you have a company of happy people, you'll have a much more profitable and any reign you want to look at company than if you have a company of scared people and what I do is I ask people to think back in their in their life, and maybe people are listening can do that too.
Gil Winch (00:47:14) - Now, at a time when they showed kindness and caring towards an individual that they didn't know that well, but they they chose the moment to shown kindness and caring. I don't care what age or where. It doesn't have to be at work. And when you have that in your mind, just one example. Think about how that made you feel. And usually people say, yeah, this is what happened. Maybe I saved the cat. Made me feel amazing. And I say, well, you can feel like that every day while earning more money. All it takes is changing your culture. Which sounds like a big thing, but if it starts from the top, it's not that big a thing. If it doesn't start from the top, I don't know how to make it work, but you can be richer and and happier and be more just by being more caring, because everybody will will be the better for it. And that's a journey that you need to go into, because that's how we need.
Gil Winch (00:48:21) - That's the environment we need in order to flourish. And you don't have enough people flourishing. When when everybody is is doing the corporate cold culture, you know, non caring thing. Yeah.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:48:33) - Yeah. From that that that piece scared people run fast. Happy people run long much longer. And I would throw in even faster at times.
Gil Winch (00:48:45) - They do because the scared people, you know, you put a sprint in and then you Peter out. But you need people doing the long term thing.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:48:52) - Is that sprint really? Could they have actually run faster if they really wanted to instead of oh, I'm scared to. I think that's a great point. To kind of wrap this up, there's one last thought I want to share with you and and love to get your take on it. As we finish here, we talk about underdogs and and one thing that I know our champion, our society champions, underdogs we really do in sports. And we champion them when they know when we know their individual stories. And I think a real part of winning with underdogs is helping each of us know the stories of our underdogs, and I think that's something that you are doing.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:49:35) - You are helping people understand the story of the underdogs out there. Instead of saying, oh, we don't really know about them. So we're going to go, you know, cheer for the team that everyone else does instead of cheering for the team that we understand their story more. I share about my friend Joe and I have a better appreciation. Not that I don't appreciate him, I absolutely do, but it's like, oh, I hadn't fully gone through the mindset of what it's been like in different roles or positions that he's had to, you know, be in. Okay, now I understand his story more. I'm more of a champion. Now.
Gil Winch (00:50:14) - The thing is that I am surrounded with so many people with such amazing, amazing stories. I mean, Netflix could have such a feast on some of the stories in the call center three days ago. This woman walks in. She hasn't worked for us for four years, but she worked for us for six years. Previously she when she joined us, it was she was 27.
Gil Winch (00:50:40) - She had spent the past ten years institutionalized for anorexia and and hurting herself. And it happened because she came from a religious family and she was raped. And instead of doing something with a rapist, they just kicked her out because she was soiled sort of thing. And and she when she came to us, she was like, I don't know, didn't weigh practically anything. She would mumble. She couldn't stand any males next to her. She couldn't actually look you in the eye. She left six years ago and she turned up in a good state. She left. Married. To someone who has a bakery. Now, this is someone who is anorexic and she's marrying a guy with a bakery. She discovered she has amazing talent for writing poetry. Now, I'm not good with poetry, but even I can appreciate what she writes. She writes amazingly well, and she came in three days ago just to show us that she's now 39 weeks pregnant. Now you take this wonderful, wonderful woman who's had such a horrific life with no fault of hers whatsoever, and she talks about her story and everybody gets uplifted from it, and everybody gets hope from it, and everybody gets to go home with a great feeling from it.
Gil Winch (00:52:00) - And I have hundreds of people like that around me every day. It's such a great place for getting perspective on really what's important in life and how people, when they actually get a chance, can blossom in ways that you wouldn't even fathom. I think it's such a wonderful thing to do and experience, and I really think I have the best job in the world. I wouldn't change it with anyone. I just think more of the world should adopt some of the things we're doing. Everybody would earn more and be a happier place for it. Yeah.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:52:34) - Well, I think there's also a point of this earning more doesn't have to be in dollars. Earning more is in the riches of that story and that impact.
Gil Winch (00:52:44) - And but it does even translate the dollar. That's the thing.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:52:47) - It does. It does. But sometimes when we pursue that, we miss sight of the real value of life, that when we actually tend to that it does turn out to be riches in so many ways.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:52:59) - I agree. Gil, thank you so much. This has been a pleasure.
Gil Winch (00:53:03) - Thank you so much for having me.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:53:17) - This comment didn't come up in the conversation with Gil, but I want to share it here. As you've listen to that, as we've talked about who are underdogs, how we can reserve employment, creating a caring culture, but as well. Really looking at what does in our world. And this is where I believe it's a tool that we've tried to use. You've heard maybe the adage is, you know, don't try to use the screwdriver when you need a hammer. You know, maybe you need to hammer in a nail. Use a hammer, not a nail. Right. Use the right tool. Jill shares this. Current managerial practices and training programs usually don't focus on managing by caring, and many managers probably feel they don't possess the necessary toolbox to adapt a caring, managerial style and remain an effective manager. Part of what I'm doing here in that last little bit from Gil was to say, hey, how can we focus on what's real impact? Not saying, how do I make more of our, you know, bottom line, but really, why are we doing what we're doing? You've go back to previous guests, whether it's John Vagueiro to Will Guidara to Steve Miller.
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:54:32) - Steve who at you know, Miller, they hire a lot of actually convicts or challenged people that can't get jobs anywhere else. It's dirty, hard work, but they're grateful to have a job. And and I think back as I was reading this book and thinking about this conversation with Gil, he's an example of someone who's doing something different in our world, that he's approaching it now. He's hired staff. He has a chaplain. Why? Because he understands that something people need. It may be different work. It may seem hard, but I know this every time in life that I've been willing to do the hard, meaningful work, I've been rewarded. And I'm going to encourage you listening in. If there's an opportunity for you to win with underdogs, to preserve employment, or just think different about it. You're going to be a better leader because of it. You're going to choose to see people in ways that you didn't see. It's practicing some empathy muscle. I had a conversation yesterday as part of the Impact Driven Leader round table, and we talked about at what point that empathy seems to just run out
Tyler Dickerhoof (00:55:38) - My caution to that and and using some of Gil's words is no, empathy doesn't run out. We lose perspective. We lose clarity. Having more clarity and understanding and addressing this situation. It is actually invigorates and makes empathy more worthwhile. I hope you got value from this episode. I'd love for you to go check out Gil on LinkedIn. As he shared, he doesn't do a lot social media. If you can pick up the book winning with underdogs, I think you're going to be benefited just to see a different perspective. There's a lot of great, valuable information as well. I'd love for you to rate, review this podcast, help this story get into the ears and minds of more people out there. Because our. Underdogs deserve it. But as well, we deserve to create a culture of caring in more organizations. Thanks for being here. Until next time, have a good one.
