IDL24 Season 1: The Corporate Competitor with Don Yaeger
What is the relationship between resilience and sport? How is building character and inner strength similar to building muscle? Which different forms can leadership take?
In today's episode, Don Yaeger and I dig deep into building resilience, his new podcast, mentorship and empathy, and also about the five models of leadership.
Meet Don Yaeger
In his 30 year career, longtime Associate Editor for Sports Illustrated and 11-time New York Times Best-Selling Author Don Yaeger has been blessed to interview the greatest winners of our generation. He has made a second career as a keynote speaker, executive coach, and podcast host discerning habits of high performance to teach teams how to reach their full potential. Today Don interviews C-Suite leaders about how the lessons they learned playing sports shaped their leadership in Corporate Competitor Podcast.
Visit his website. Listen to Don’s podcast and connect with him on Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn.
In this episode we discuss:
Sport and building resilience
Mentorship
Empathy
Five models of leadership
SPORT AND BUILDING RESILIENCE
“To me, resilience is a muscle. Character is a muscle, and a lot of people think of these things as soft skills, but I think they’re muscles, and I think like everything else that you have to develop within yourself, you have to work the muscle.”
For many people, starting to build the muscle of their resilience and fortitude came from having to develop similar strengths on the sports field.
During sport you are constantly challenged to push your limits, to work in a team, to negotiate loss and be humble with your winnings and uplift your team even if you are losing. Being on the field in many ways echoes what you might have to do in the business world.
“What sports [can teach you] … be over-prepared for everything because if you can be then nothing that occurs will take you too far off [course] because you thought it through. ”
MENTORSHIP
Mentorship is not only encouraging people to push their boundaries but to provide a space where there is enough trust so that the person feels supported to go into places deep inside themselves that they need to go to.
Mentorship can come not only from someone who pushes you physically but also mentally and emotionally.
A mentor does not always mean pushing, a mentor can also be someone who encourages you to keep going with sturdy yet kind words.
EMPATHY
“If you take time to show someone you care, they will care about you … we want relationships that are mutually exclusive and they are beautiful if we can make them happen. ”
Empathy is a tool, even a muscle, that you can exercise to create meaningful relationships both inside and outside of work.
When you focus on supporting someone, you make a difference, and that is when and where you make the most impact in their lives and in yours. You are able to support someone through the tool of empathy.
A leader with empathy will shine a light on the people that are not often in the spotlight, notice their successes and acknowledge the efforts they put in because it is not about constantly being the best or doing the most. The leader that acknowledges all their employees is the leader that creates a team of well-supported people.
FIVE MODELS OF LEADERSHIP
Command and control: someone who believes they are the general and that they are the only ones in charge.
Relational: leaders who constantly work to keep their teams harmonious.
Expert: leaders who are experts in their field.
Charismatic: leaders who have attractive energy.
Synergistic: leaders that have the ability to pivot between the previous four models depending on what is needed in the situation at hand.
Resources, books, and links mentioned in this episode:
Visit his website. Listen to Don’s podcast and connect with him on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.
The Impact Driven Leader YouTube Channel
Join the Impact Driven Leader Community
Connect with Tyler on Instagram and LinkedIn
BOOK | Don Yaeger & Kyle Carpenter – You Are Worth It: Building a Life Worth Fighting For
BOOK | Don Yaeger and Jack Nicklaus – Best Seat in the House: 18 Golden Lessons from a Father to His Son
About the Impact Driven Leader Podcast
The Impact Driven Leader Podcast, hosted by Tyler Dickerhoof, is for Xillennial leaders who have felt alone and ill-equipped to lead in today's world. Through inspiring interviews with authors from around the world, Tyler uncovers how unique leadership strengths can empower others to achieve so much more, with real impact.
Rate, review and subscribe here on Apple Podcasts or subscribe on Stitcher and Spotify.
IF YOU TAKE TIME TO SHOW SOMEONE YOU CARE, THEY WILL CARE ABOUT YOU.
Don Yaeger
Podcast Transcription
[TYLER DICKERHOOF]
As you know, as you've heard, part of this podcast is also doing the Impact Driven Leader round table. I want you to listen to this quick message. This is an invitation. I want you to come sit at our table. You're going to learn, you're going to grow and you can't help, but have a great time with us. And I invite you. You're listening. There's a seat for you with your name on it. Come join us.
[MOLLY SLOAN]
Hey, this is Molly Sloan. The Impact Driven Leader book club and round table have been transformational for me. I've been involved for the past six months and it's taken me on a journey to be a better leader and a better person at work, at home, and really in every interaction with people. Tyler's done a great job of guiding us through the books. They're current, thought-provoking and they apply to all of us. The weekly round table has become an accountability team. I've done lots of leadership trainings in the past where you feel on top of the world, the week after the event, but ultimately it wears off over time. This group is better. We're on a leadership journey with each other through frequent, ongoing discussions and continual growth. I strongly recommend this group to anyone aiming to continually develop as a leader.
[TYLER]
Welcome to the Impact Driven Leader podcast. This is your host, Tyler Dickerhoof. Glad to have you here today. Man, this is a special treat where a good friend of mine, Don Yaeger, and I sit down and we chat about his latest project, the Corporate Competitor Podcast of which he's releasing episode 50 this week. So excited for that. If you have not tuned in, go listen to that podcast as well. Those interviews are absolutely amazing. You're going to love it. He is the author of 32 books. He spent the last few weeks, 11 weeks, I believe with Walter Payton. He wrote You Are Worth It with Kyle Carpenter, Warrick Dunn, John Wooden, Jack Nicklaus. You know, you talk about icons and sport and Don has interviewed them, written about them.
His weekly blog is something that I absolutely love because it really blends this passion of mine in leadership and sports. And we're going to talk about that today. He is going to teach a masterclass on the five attributes of leadership. You're going to want to make sure you have your notes. It was fun how it popped up. And when Don all a sudden said, "Hey, let me grab that, because we're going to get down and dirty and talk about this stuff," I loved it. It was so much fun and I truly hope you enjoy listening to this conversation with the amazing Don Yeager.
[TYLER]
All right. Well, Don friend, body, I'm so glad to see you, man.
[DON YAEGER]
Tyler ditto. I can't wait to one of these days here soon where we actually get to go out and do it in person.
[TYLER]
You know, it we met several years ago through mutual friend, John Maxwell. You were at his event, we got to know each other a little bit there and then we got to spend time the hall of fame together. Super cool experience. And just this friendship, it's one of those things, fun that I get to send you messages during football season and say, "Hey, what do you see about this? What do you see from your perspective?" And that was really my kind of hope to have you as a guest today, is your Corporate Competitor Podcast, one of your latest products, which I absolutely love is nearing its 50th episode. When this releases will be simultaneous with your 50 episode. So I am sitting here, as you know, I prepare, I've done that in the past, but I just got a couple of bullet points I want to hear from you. I kind of want to come with a clean slate to learn is first of all, from your Corporate Competitor Podcast, what have you learned?
[DON]
Wow, I will tell you Tyler, like you, much of our life, much of my life anyway, has been fascinated around athletes and around coaches and around teams. So much of it is sports-related. But what I realized was in that kind of the transition in my life from version, whatever 2.0 at Sports Illustrated and writing books to 3.0 and speaking and other things, was that I was, most of the people I was talking to would never, ever be an athlete at that level. So one of the things I was looking for were ways that I could better bridge the gap between athletics as a passion and lessons it can teach you. And so I think that's the thing that's really stood out to me is that all of these folks, all of these executives that I've been blessed to interview in this first year, they can all harken back to some moments, some incredible experience on a field, a court, a pool, whatever it might've been and talk about how, what was required of them, whether it was discipline, whether it was the ability to pick themselves up after a loss.
What were the elements that made them as a younger person capable of managing success and failure in their sporting endeavors, how that made them better when they ultimately move past sports and into the world of business. So that connection point and the ability that everyone had to articulate it, that's what I love. Sometimes you think, well, do you have a question? And it's just a good question, but most people have never thought about it. Every one of these guests, you can tell, they had thought through boy, I am better as a leader because. And that's good stuff.
[TYLER]
As I again, listen along weekly, I love it because I really, we've talked about this before the bridge between, and there's, I wrote it down bridging the athletics to life lessons. And that's what I really enjoy about athletics is it helps us reflect on what are we doing in life, because unfortunately for them athletes, professional athletes, their entire professional life is on camera. Because it's great, you can study it, but yet it's unfortunate because we, as public can study it, but it's how to use those lessons. And as your different guests have talked about the different attributes, and I'd love for you to kind of maybe if there's one or two that stuck out to give our audience an idea of that, the type of guests you have, but I'm going to speak of Jamie Bell from Legal Shield.
He talks about resilience. You know, here's a guy who was about my size he's 5'10, 200 pounds, and he's playing for one of the best high schools in the state of Ohio. I mean, this high school has produced AJ Hawk, Ryan Hawk, I mean, other elite talents. And he was there back in the seventies and eighties and he said, "I was a little guy, but I had tremendous resilience. I had to learn how to fight through that." That was just one of the things that I love that in life, we have to learn that resilience at some point. What lesson teaches us that? All right, I got to stop right here. I know this is in the middle of the conversation. I made an error. I said Jamie bell, but I met Jeff Bell. I'm not sure why I said Jamie, but I did. It's Jeff Bell, the chief executive officer with Legal Shield. All right. Now, back to the conversation.
[DON]
Well, and that's, you're right. That is the beauty of sport. Yes, you can learn that in other places. Yes you can learn that in music, or you can learn it in school theater or other things, but sports are this unifying. I mean most of us ran up and down the field in baseball or soccer or something as kids and and while the parents said, no one kept score, the truth is the kids did, exactly who won and lost. All of those things. Those are ways that you begin building up that muscle right. Resilience to me is a muscle. Character is a muscle. A lot of people think of these things as soft skills, those are soft skills. I just, I think they're muscles. And I think like everything else that you have to develop within yourself, you have to work on the muscle and it's got to start somewhere.
And for so many of these, it started there on some kind of field. So bringing those stories back, I mean, it was fun. I got a chance to interview Kent Thielen who is the president of Mayo Clinics in Florida. He is an amazing guy, but he's this guy, unbelievable career in business and in medicine. And yet when we get into talking about high school football, where he was a really good player, played college football as well, but he could name a fourth down play in a state championship game and what the coach called and how it made everybody, I mean, just when you start watching and you start thinking about, and he called me afterwards.
He listened to it with his own children who are grown now. They're in their twenties, and he said, his own kids said, "Dad, we'd never heard you tell that story. Never heard you tell that story." So that kind of, that's the neat part of this, is that idea that there are people that don't, that actually, they go through their entire life and sports is part of their life journey, but it's not part of their bio. So that's what we were trying to bring up.
[TYLER]
You've mentioned Kent, and he, and Ralph, what touched me about them is they both grew up on dairy farms. And I love listening to the episodes and really there's, I don't know if it's just the way it's worked out, but so many of gifts come from really rural areas, tough areas where sports really was, it wasn't the way out, but it was something that we did to get out of regular life; that ability to bind together as a team and to learn as, I experienced that, to develop that resilient muscle with others. Because we can be very myopic and think it's on our own, but none of life is on her own.
[DON]
Right, no. And I think that's the biggest par.t that was even interesting. For example this one hasn't run yet, but we just interviewed Bubba Watson the other day. He is a golfer. And Bob and I are writing a book together. So it's a fun project to do, but he's a golfer and he makes the point, he's the one who picks the club and ultimately has to make the swing. But golf is not a singular sport. It's not done by oneself. It is a team effort. And you start thinking about it, "Wow." And in life, all of us, we live, we participate, we excel, we fail as teams. And the more we take time to break that down, the better we'll be the next time, the stronger our muscle will be.
[TYLER]
You know as kind of, as you mentioned, this idea that we can be on our own, but we're not alone. We're in this team. It doesn't matter what sport it is, where you're at in life. It's this element of teamwork. And what are the other characteristics I really picked up, and something I know that is important to you, you have mentioned is this idea of preparation. And it really kind of stood out to me, how many guests really identified the practice, the training, the pre-game development, that idea of being prepared for your opponent or your competition as a skill and attribute that is applied throughout their entire life, even to the extent of being over the top.
[DON]
Yes. So Bob Iger, the Disney CEO talked a lot about that, about how, what sports taught him was exactly that be over prepared for everything. Because if you can be, if you are nothing that occurs, we'll take you too far offline. Because you thought through. So he actually shares a great story. He said that all the preparation he put in as an athlete, I mean, miles and miles, he was a track athlete. He said, obviously, for every mile you run in track, you're running 20 in practice where nobody's seeing you, no one's cheering for you, there's no one in the stands. So he talked a lot about how he used that as he advanced in his career at Disney. And now, I mean, think about it. He's only the seventh CEO in the history of that iconic company, but while he's climbing the ranks, one thing he realized is if I'm going to be well-prepared, I need to be ready for any potential thing.
So for years, whatever speech he might be delivering, even if it was on a teleprompter, he had a copy of it in his breast pocket. And for years he never needed, he would leave the stage, throw the breast pocket one away, until just a few years ago, he's had a enormous opportunity. The crowd is filled with people of influence that needed to hear his voice and boom, it goes out. It doesn't matter what preparation level you have. If you're used to the teleprompter gig, you get screwed up when it flips. So he calmly reaches into his breast pocket because he had it, he was ready. Now that doesn't happen for him, he says, if he weren't just taught as a young athlete to always over-prepare.
[TYLER]
The lesson that I learned from that is, and I shared this with somebody yesterday, is we can prepare in sports, prepare a business, prepare, Bob prepares us. He puts his speech in his pocket. But I know and you know that there's so many other things that are prepared that may never come to light, but simple process of learning and preparing. Like, if you go into a game plan, we're talking, it doesn't matter the sport. Let's use lacrosse because whatever, and you know roughly what the other team is going to do, you know what you can do, you know what players are we going to run after they do this or that, and they change their lineup. But just the simple process of doing that allows for your brain to react to something you didn't expect at all, because you've prepared as opposed to, "I've never prepared. I'm going to freak out because I have no idea life changed on me."
[DON]
Right. And that is, I mean, again, great sports lesson, a great life lesson, and one that, as you pointed out, many of our guests have included among the things they took from their time at sports. We had everything from visualizing victory, from being able to see what it means and think through what it means to become successful too. I mean, having walk-ons, like Brandon Landry. Who was a walk-on basketball player at Louisiana state. And he talked about developing the walk-on mentality. And he argues rightly that all of us, our walk-ons in life, we all have largely struggled to try to find our way. But when you can actually develop yourself as a walk on, develop yourself and make sure that you're that person, you then can actually even go out and become an owner of a company. He owns a great, incredible string of restaurants that are called walk-ons in which he inspires all of those employees that work for him to live that mentality, to be that.
So, yes, from start to finish, this has been just an incredible learning journey for me. And that's the fun part. You know it. That's the beauty of doing this. If you'd had told me at the beginning that that's what I would get out of building a podcast, I'd have done this five years earlier. But guys like you who have been doing it are really, it's a blessing. It's an incredible blessing.
[TYLER]
For me, and I'll share kind of this impression that I got from that, as a student, as someone who loves to learn this process is it's quite honestly very self-serving, but I know if I'm learning and we're asking great questions, even the guys in your room are going to learn something. The people listening in are going to learn. You can't help not to, if you devote the time as we're sitting here learning together. And to me that's what makes this so much fun. Let's transition a little bit. I want to talk about, I've had the honor to meet of the I guess the impetus of one of your books, Kyle Carpenter, amazing book, amazing story, and got to meet you and Kyle, and have lunch with Kyle at the hall of fame a couple of years ago. But you have a new book that you're writing with Bubba Watson, but a book is just released with Jack and Jack Nicklaus, excuse me. And you just interviewed them. What I want to know is, you've had Walter Payton, you've had other tremendous athletes figures that you've written books about, spent time with John Wooden, and in that entire family. I want to know why you personally have chosen to write those stories.
[DON]
So it comes right down to what you just said a minute ago about podcasting Tyler; it's enormously selfish. People asked me years ago, like, how do you pick the books you choose? And I've been lucky that Nicklaus book is my 32nd book. I choose stories that I can't wait to learn. And I figured if I can't wait to learn it, and if I'm willing to pour myself into it and I'm willing to spend hours and hours and hours researching it, then I can make it a good read that will take you far less time to appreciate the greatness of the story. So I'm constantly looking for, I have, and I won't go back and tell you which one it is, but early in my career, I did one book for money where I was just paid a crud load of money to do a book with somebody who I didn't personally like, but I did it because I made a crud load of money. Since then, I've vowed never to do that again. I will work with people whose life story inspires me. And I know that if I'm inspired by learning their life story, I can hopefully translate it into words in a way that lets others feel the same inspiration.
[TYLER]
Well, I love you saying that because I think that's a life lesson that a lot of people have to learn, is really whatever you're doing, however, you're trying to add value to serve people, if it's out of like, "Hey, I want to serve, because I see the greater opportunity here, not just, I'm going to do a job to get paid," my opinion, the result is always better. It's always better because you give that extra effort. And I would imagine if somebody read all 32 of your books and said, "Which one is it?" my guess is they could probably sense it. Just by giving that description of, and maybe you grew to like the person, appreciate the person in the process, but there was something different I would imagine you could pick up. And I believe that's everything we do in life.
[DON]
Yes. And the flip side of it is if you, in doing these books, some of the most incredible things have happened. We mentioned just minutes ago, the Bubba Watson opportunity in the book. In this book, Bubba Watson for the first time, really digs deep on anxiety and the mental health challenges he has struggled with in a sport in which nobody talks about that because everybody thinks, I mean, golfing is 90% mental. I mean, the swinging and everything else, there are some who have just magical swings, but the ability to process and to keep yourself in the moment at all times is obviously a key element in golf. So for a two-time masters champion, one of the greatest players of our generation for him to sit and open up about this, he said to his agent. The other day I was talking to to that agent and he said, "You know what? If we don't sell a single copy of this book, it was worth it because I got the chance to unburden myself for the first time in relationship, in conversation with Don of the challenges I faced and by articulating them, by putting them down, I'm better for the experience." And you realize there's a cathartic nature to writing these books as well. If you do a good job, you're pulling from people, things that they may not naturally want to talk about, but in that conversation extraordinary things are allowed to happen.
[TYLER]
Yes. You know, one of the things that I kind of gathered from you saying that is there's this relationship of almost mentorship that is now established between you and Bubba, because he is able to open that up. Obviously there's a process of the book, but it comes into, I would guess, and this is something going back to a lot of your podcasts guests, talking about the value of coaches, the value of mentors, the value of people that they can share that burden with as part of their team and know that those people are going to lift them up and help them be better and not think less of them. And that's the, if I had to put a framework around what you just said about Bubba, that's what I gathered from that; is that relationship, the two of you have now kind of developed. It's like, "Hey, I can share this. It's going to serve other people, but Don, you gave me comfort to open that up and share it. And you're not going to sit here and judge me or write negatively. If anything, it's like, these are real world attributes that we all deal with." How powerful is that and that role as a mentor to help bring that out of people?
[DON]
Well, it's been, again I would struggle to call myself a mentor to any of these folks, but I will tell you that in fact, what I think I was, was a good conversationalist. And we know, I think that's a long story.
[TYLER]
That's a big part of mentoring.
[DON]
I agree. I'm struggling sitting here going, man, mentor to me is a big word. I've only had a few of them in my life. And I think, man, I don't know that I've put myself in the category with any of the folks that have mentored me, but I will tell you that what I have learned is that if I can, as you said, ask, be nonjudgmental and then listen and from the active listening and the art of listening to find the next good question. What you are able to do is literally put people at ease in the most uncomfortable places. They can at moments where they would never have said the things they'll say, realize I did this in complete comfort. And that's where, that's the thing I probably love the most, is getting folks to that place.
[TYLER]
I'm just going to say it because I appreciate you as a mentor in my life in a way, is that's a mentor. And I think that's part of the impact. It's doing that, the process with people because my opinion is John is a, Maxwell's a mentor of mine, a mentor of yours. He has an unbelievable ability to do that, to ask those questions in speak-belief. And I know as you're sitting there and you're talking to your guests is I've heard it. I know you prepare. I know you do that so well, is to get people to open up, means there's got to be a tremendous amount of trust. And to me to spin this to athletics is the athletes that look back their career and they're like, "I would have never guessed I would have accomplished that." Is because they had coaches and people within their organization. Maybe it wasn't the head coach, maybe it was a position coach, system coach, whatever that was able to unlock something that they didn't even realize was inside themselves.
[DON]
You know, just to play this conversation circle, one moment that I'll never forget was one of our early kind of big interviews, big guests, if you will as an interview was with Brian Moynihan, the CEO of Bank of America. The guy's has 210,000 employees who answer through a chain up to him. That's an amazing leader. And he played rugby at Brown. So through relationships, I was introduced to him and he agreed to be a guest on the podcast. Now it was probably more an agreement for my friend than it was for me, but he does it. And now he is such a big deal. I mean, his schedule is down to the nanosecond, that they've got him scheduled.
So his IT person comes in an hour in advance to set up the conference room so that it will look good, sound good. Brian will be at his very best and he's going to walk in at precisely 11 o'clock and I get exactly one hour. Now, which an hour with the CEO of Bank of America, pretty incredible. But you mentioned preparation. So I think this is the thing I am most proud of about what we're building at this podcast is that in advance of every interview we do we'll do 12 hours of research into not just their business career, but what high school coach they played for. Oh, by the way, the field is named for that coach. He's in the hall of fame at this, he passed away last year. We'll have details about these leaders, these executives, opportunity to learn and grow from.
We'll have pictures from their high school yearbook, which freaks these people out. So Brian Moynahan, obviously he's doing this interview as a favor, so he's not, even though we have shipped a 20 page package to him saying, this is all the research done and the questions I'm going to ask you, he's not opened it. Because he doesn't have time to open it, but he sits down, shakes his shoulders a little bit, and he looks at the document, that's handed to him right there and he does this and he starts flipping through. And you watch him visibly become like comfortable, like, "Wow, you know what? I'm not showing up here to have you ask me random questions about what high school I went to. You've done all the work in advance."
What he said and the way he opened up so quickly, that doesn't happen without good preparation. So the work done on the outer ring of that preparation circle allowed him to immediately advance into a comfort zone that would have taken most settings 20 minutes to establish. So that was a great lesson for me, that it would be a whole lot easier to do these podcasts and to book these guests and just do a Wikipedia search and just try to, hope that most of it's true. But the amount of work that the woman who runs our podcast, her name is Savannah Gallagher, the amount of work that she and her team do to prep and be ready so that when we sit down, the guest knows they've been taken care of, they've been studied and nothing tells care greater than study. If I've said, if I've taken time to learn your story, what does that tell you, that says to you I care.
[TYLER]
I want to run with that because that to me is a great topic in leadership. So can we go with that?
[DON]
Please?
[TYLER]
I think one of the lessons that I've had to learn and develop is empathy. And to me, curiosity is empathy. You know, you talked a little bit with Bob about that, is this curiosity quotient. And to me as a leader, empathy is displayed through curiosity. And as you're displaying that as a leader to another leader, "Hey, I'm so curious and empathetic and caring about you as a person. I'm willing to prepare." What you just told me is something that you shared with me in our previous episode. You said, "Well, Tyler, I was amazed by your preparation. And I enjoyed that process of prepping because I want to come and know what's going on." Yes, I listen to your podcasts. I know these guests because that to me makes this conversation rich. To me and connection and relationship and leadership, it is that single attribute that I've had to learn because I love to connect. I'm a curious person, but I never connected it with being empathy, is the difference in teamwork, in relationships and organizations.
[DON]
Every level. It is so true. If you take time to show someone you care, they will care about you. And what do we want? We want relationships where that is mutually exchanged and that is beautiful, if we can make that happen. And just not to blow smoke up your skirt, but I did a podcast the other day in preparation for the release of the Nicklaus book and the podcast host, other than knowing that I wrote a book, knew almost nothing. In fact he asked me, "How long have you been writing? Is this your first book?" And I'm thinking on the flap of the book, it says, it's my 32nd book. And he didn't even open it up to look at the flap. So the interview was flat. Like I gave zero energy to the interview and I swore to the publicist who had asked me, I said, "By the way, don't ever ask me to do that interview again. I will never go back on that show." And it's a pretty significant show. I just don't need it. When you reached out and said, "Don, I'd love to do this again," the answer was an absolute why, because of the respect earned for the first time. So the beauty of this is it really pays dividends for a lifetime.
[TYLER]
To me, that is, and I've learned from a friend, Brad Lomenick has an amazing kind of two or three minutes going through the difference between a networker and a connector. And to me, it is that beauty of being a connector, is I want to come here. Why did I want you as a guest? Because I want more people to listen to your podcast, because to me, it gives great context and knowledge to our world. It's how can I add value to you? And with that, I know you're going to add value to the few people that listen to this, but it's furthering that relationship to know I am better than when I get to learn from you. And I am better, the people that you've introduced to my life, who we've become now good friends that I've gotten better, to me, when people focus on that at any level of your life, I don't care if you're the lowest of the lowest rung in any organization, or if you're at the highest, if you focus on those attributes that you just talked about, you will make a difference. You will make an impact.
And as I've experienced in life, it was accepting my insecurities, because we all have them and saying the solution to my insecurities was just being empathetic, being curious about people, to know about you and your family. And I know the health challenges you had a year ago, and that's on my heart and caring because you're an important part of my life. Even though, we may text here and there, but I know the value you bring, and it's partly because of the mentors you have had. I consider myself very lucky to call two people friends that have both spent tremendous amount of time with John Wooden and between you and John Maxwell. And to me, that's just an amazing component of my life that I'm thankful for. And it's funny as we talk about this as a coach, as a leader, as I've studied them. And you know far better than I do. I think one of the greatest attributes as a coach, as a mentor that coach Wooden displayed was empathy. He cared tremendously about his players, whether they were starters or not.
[DON]
Yes. And in fact, he made it a real point. One of the things I loved about him is a game would end and if you go back and again, these things aren't recorded. So you have to go back and actually read transcripts, which I did. In his post-game interviews, his post-game press conferences, he never mentioned the player that scored the most points or the player that recorded the greatest number of rebounds. He always talked about the players who cheered for them on the bench or that player who came in midway through the second half when somebody needed a breather and this player gave it all for 90 seconds. He mentioned, because he knew the world was already going to pay attention to the player who scored the most points and recorded the most rebounds, but that he is a leader could make the world's attention shift to these other people for a short period of time.
[DON]
And trust me, they knew. He told a story once to me about one of his great players, a great scorer. And one of Wooden's demands of his players was if you scored a basket, but it came off of a good pass, an assist, someone set you up to be successful. That when you turn to return to the other end of the court, you're to look at the other player and acknowledge them for making a great pass. And this player, a young player who had been enormously successful in high school, but been a little selfish, he said, "Well, coach, what happens if I turn and the guy's not looking at me?" And coach Wooden said, "If you are there to acknowledge your teammates, trust me, they'll always be looking at you." And what a great lesson. Set a culture in which you say, acknowledging each other and all of those things. If you make, John again, just so many lessons from John Wooden that you just couldn't help, but learn from him every time you're around him.
[TYLER]
Well, one of the things, I was talking to a friend yesterday, we got into this youth sports conversation and it's coaching. And I made mention to him, and I said, "We're in this generational shift." I believe that it's part of our generational shift in leadership. You have baby boomers evolving to gen Z and guys my age, guys that are in our early forties are sitting here and we are the bridge to come back to your bridge between athletics and in life lessons. To me, I believe we are this leadership bridge. And one of the things that's interesting is this guy and I were talking about it and he played college football and college baseball. He was a two sport athlete and a lot of his coaches during our age area modeled after Bobby Knight. And it's very gruff and hard and yelling and screaming, and how many coaches now today, of our kids' age that feel like they need to be that way, as opposed to the coaches that realize, you know what, we need to model after coach Wooden, because he wasn't that yeller and screamer from the sideline. He was the guy that was the champion. He was building guys up. He was saying, this is where you can be successful in our opportunity as leaders, but also as coaches to show, there's a better way. There's a better way that's going to accomplish more for a lifetime. And to me, it's just this great chance to ---
[DON]
It starts with empathy as opposed to a belief that, a dictatorial approach. I am the only knower of all things. I am. And again, it's interesting. So like you, I'm a student of leadership. And I really look at what I would tell you, what I think are five models of leadership that we can all look at.
[TYLER]
Okay, I'm going write this down. You just gave me a nugget. If you don't have a pen and paper listening to Don, you need to, because he's going to give us five pieces of genuine wisdom.
[DON]
Well, so and actually, we're recording this, right?
[TYLER]
Yes.
[DON]
So I want to make sure I get them exactly right. Let me get that. I actually added these to a book the other day. Hold on a second.
[TYLER]
Oh, this is good stuff done.
[DON]
So in looking at these five styles, and we really spent a lot of time not just talking to others, but working with great leadership experts. So the first style is command and control, and there's where you'd put a Bobby Knight. That's somebody who believes he is the general. The fact that he went to army, that makes him think that he's the general, but George Patton, others, Martha Stewart, they're dictators. They believe that they should command and control. The second style is relational. And that's those who are able to, they work constantly to try to keep their teams happy and harmonious. They're constantly working on the relationship with each other. The third is ---
[TYLER]
Because it would be an example of that.
[DON]
Well, a great relational leader would be somebody like, well Sarah Blakely, for example. In his heyday, and I'm so saddened by what happened toward the end, but Tony Shea at Zappos would have been a great example. He was somebody's constantly working internal relationships. The third is the expert leader. And that's the person that like Bill Gates, who is just, I mean, you just know that when they offer you wisdom, it's probably right. Because it usually, because they don't say it until their expertise is able to come out. The fourth is a charismatic leader. And that would be kind of, I mean, if you were to do a John F. Kennedy or even Pete Carroll at the Seattle Seahawks, charismatic. Their energy draws people to them and it opens doors for leadership.
But then the fifth one, and this is where John Wooden and very few John Maxwell, other leaders, I would put them is when we call synergistic leadership. And that's where frankly, they have the ability to pivot between the other four at the given time that it's necessary. Because sometimes the Bobby Knight approach, the pandemic hits and the world needs somebody to step in and drive change. A command and control leader is actually you're in battle and the enemy has just broken through your line and you've got to imagine what you have to do. A command and control leader is good in that moment, but it's not good in all moments. Sometimes you have to be able to throw your arm around someone's shoulder and be relational and understand what's happening in their life. Sometimes you have to be able to show that you will have command of the situation.
You have an expertise that they should want to follow. Sometimes you just need to, you need to let what the charisma you have flow from you and the ability to pivot when each is necessary. You know, coach Wooden had the pyramid of success and at the very top of the pyramid he said that greatness is really defined by having what is necessary at the moment that you're asked to be great. So that's what a great synergistic leader is all about. And that's the thing that I've loved about talking to all of these really amazing executives and doing this podcast, because I'm hearing their go-to style. And the fact that you have a go-to style doesn't mean you can't also be a synergistic leader. It just means that's your default. That's where you go in most situations. But if you're aware of the truly aware leader, a good coach will know, there are times I need to just be on you because that's what it's going to take to get the best of you. And there are times I'm going to need to wrap my arms around you in order to get the best of you. And the great coaches know how to manage and be an amalgamation of the previous one.
[TYLER]
One of the lessons that I've learned too, is that's doing with every individual on your team. It is knowing who's the guy that needs a kick in the pants, that just need you to get into his face and say, "I believe in you. Go and do it. Quit making excuses," and just that little bit of fire, as opposed to you go and do that with someone else. And they'll crumble into a puddle on the floor. They just need you to put your arm around them and say, "I believe in you. You can do this." And they go and shine.
[DON]
And if you try, if you reverse those efforts, your leadership capacity is lost.
[TYLER]
Yes. Well, to me again, and to circle this around, you mentioned this list and business people, but there's a lot of coaches, professional coaches that we get to see that displayed and their ability on the field is displayed by what happens in their career. And I'm going to circle this back to my Browns because I mean, the Browns are good right now. If we don't talk about the Browns, you are the sports guy, and if we don't talk about Browns, then we've lost an opportunity. And I remember texting you last fall and I was like, do you see what, I think you had written an article about Kevin Stefanski or something about him? Like what he's doing is a case study in leadership development. And I loved it. I'm a Browns fan. I watched as many places as I could last year.
[DON]
It's called long suffering. That's what it's called.
[TYLER]
Yes. That is, I'm a child of Northeast Ohio. I know no different. I mean, I was teasing somebody who was an Atlanta fan. They're like, "Oh, Atlanta." They've like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm a Cleveland fan. I'm a Cleveland fan. This isn't a badge that I want to wear, but when I saw Kevin's defense, and last year, beginning of the season and a new coach and a team that has never had success and he's going out there and it's fourth and four and they're going for it, and the commentators are like, "Well, that's a risky call." And you just saw the trust and belief. I don't even think they got that play, but they came off the field and they're like, "He believes in us." Yes, and that's why they were able to nearly beat The Chiefs at the very end of the season, all beat up. It's because that layer of belief had been just laid in there. And to me it was like, that's leadership?
[DON]
Yes, I love, it's been it's like you, every day is an adventure. Every day is a learning opportunity. Every interview is an opportunity to gain something new from someone and as a result increase my, I hope my own leadership internally with my team and externally kind of with the places I get to coach, other executives and the places I get the chance to speak and do those efforts. Because anytime you get a chance to just engage these conversations, I truly believe people are better as a result.
[JOSH]
Well, Don I am better today for the time that we have spent together. I am better for the work that you're doing to share the stories you're sharing and to bring those leadership lessons out of it. So thank you friend. Thank you. Keep doing it, man and I'm thankful for the opportunity and again to just go in your wake.
[DON]
Tyler it's the other way around. So I have just recorded 50. You're at what number now?
[JOSH]
Well this is, I think this week releases 19. I've probably done 30 something. Before that did 30 or so. So I think altogether podcasts, I've probably recorded some 65 episodes. So not that many in the grand scheme of things.
[DON]
But you're a little ahead of me and that's good. It's always good. Find those people a little ahead of you and then work to learn.
[JOSH]
Well, I appreciate you helping me learn. So thank you.
[DON]
Ditto. Thank you.
[JOSH]
All right. So I enjoyed that conversation as hopefully you picked up while I was talking to Don, but I'm going to go through in case you missed them. These are the five styles of leadership; the command and control, the relational, the expert leader, the charismatic leader, and then the synergistic leader. I think if you stop and realize there are those type of leaders in your life and each one of those leaders has a downside, has a pitfall and yet when you look at this pinnacle, you can go to Jim Collins level five leader, the pinnacle leader that John Maxwell writes about. And to me, that is that synergistic leader. To me, that's what I aspire to be. That's what I'm helping others to be. I'm on my path to get healthy to be that leader. And I want you to join in too.
I want you to be part of the round table that we have with the Impact Driven Leader book club, what you heard earlier for Molly telling about her experience, which I've so enjoyed getting to know her better. And I encourage you and want to encourage you, come join. Go to theimpactdrivenleader.com. You can find out all about the round table there. As well, if you got value out of this episode, please go share it with someone. Send it to them. My hope is that you rate and review us, you subscribe, do all those things because man, I hope people like Don get to add value in your life, but add value to more lives. That's why I'm doing this, to help spread the message of other great leaders like Don who share stories of great leaders, leaders in sport that really kind of transcend all of life.
And that's what I love doing with this podcast. And I love to learn because I sit down and learn from friends like Don. I hope you're learning as well. Thank you again for being here as a listener and my hope is that you will simply share this with someone that they get value out of it too. Thanks again for listening. I'll catch you on the next episode.
