IDL25 Season 1: Crossing the Generational Divide with Jason Dorsey
Why should leaders aim for diversity of influence and experience? What is the importance of doing prework before immersing yourself in a new client or project? How and what can you learn from Gen Z, and why is it important that leaders start embracing the difference?
Jason Dorsey is the world’s leading Gen Z and Millennials speaker, expert, and researcher. Today we talk about how Gen Z will impact business, how they will shape the future, and exactly why we need to be ready for it.
Meet Jason Dorsey
Jason Dorsey is a pioneering Gen Z, Millennial, and generations speaker and researcher. He is on a mission to separate generational myth from truth through data to solve strategic challenges for leaders.
Jason is a Global Keynotes Speaker and an Acclaimed Generational Researcher.
Jason is President of The Center for Generational Kinetics (CGK), the leading generational research, strategy, and consulting firm. CGK works with more than 100 clients annually to solve tough generational challenges—in areas from sales and marketing to recruiting and innovation.
Jason’s latest bestselling book is Zconomy: How Gen Z Will Change the Future of Business—and What to Do About It. This breakthrough book was a #1 New Release on Amazon. Forbes listed it as a Top 10 Business Book of 2020. Zconomy is published in five languages.
Jason is also a Millennial, married to a Gen X’er, and they have a Gen Z daughter!
Visit his website. Connect with him on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube Twitter, and LinkedIn.
In this episode we discuss:
Aim for the diversity of experience
“Preparation is the price of entry to excellence”
Stability and attracting great people
AIM FOR THE DIVERSITY OF EXPERIENCE
As a leader, it is important to recognize the power and importance of empathy. Empathy is a word that gets thrown around a lot, however, it signifies an important aspect of leadership: learning through listening and awareness.
“We’ve lost so much empathy in the world and empathy is very different to sympathy. I think being empathetic to people and their experience and what they’re bringing to everything they do … is really powerful. Part of that is … [encouraging] diversity of influences.”
When you create spaces where there can be diversity of experience and influence, you are inadvertently creating a space where empathy can grow.
By encouraging people to share their experience and their influence in a welcoming atmosphere, and listening and learning from them as the leader, you are creating a place where your employees not only feel safe but know that they are valued.
“ To me what diversity of influences means is being in situations where you are not always right or where you are not in the majority, surrounding people with different informed perspectives that may completely contrast with your own. For me, that’s been really important.”
Seek to understand what other people experience in the world, and how they experience it. You do not have to agree, but you should want to listen. Maybe you get to an agreement, but having that open space for them to share and for you to listen is crucial.
This is a skill that you can develop and it will help you to become the best leader for yourself and for those that you lead.
PREPARATION IS THE PRICE OF ENTRY TO EXCELLENCE
Doing the work to understand the organization or client that you are working with is the key to building excellence in work and in communication with them, ultimately leading to stronger and more positive outcomes.
If you work with younger people, working to understand the nuances of the younger generations is vital to working well with them and encouraging them to work with you.
It is important to consider what is similar and links people, and not only on the differences or what divides people.
“We need diversity of thought to foster innovation … the more that we can see that we can work together, we can get along, we can solve some of these problems … generally speaking, we can make a lot of progress if we’re willing to have those conversations. ”
You can grow with the generations as they come. There is a lot to learn. As a leader, this is where your diversity of influence comes in again: allow yourself to be influenced by younger generations to create your organization in a way that serves others better.
STABILITY and attracting great people
If you want to attract Gen Z, discuss the stability and flexibility of your company. Gen Z and younger generations expect more from their employers than simply being paid.
“If people see your company as really there to help its employees, develop their talent and become better people in the world and so forth, then you will continue to attract great people. The problem is when you don’t do that, and you lose employees.”
Having the willingness to help your employees and creative a collaborative environment can aid the success of your business.
Resources, books, and links mentioned in this episode:
Visit Jason’s website. Connect with him on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube Twitter, and LinkedIn.
The Impact Driven Leader YouTube Channel
Join the Impact Driven Leader Community
Connect with Tyler on Instagram and LinkedIn
BOOK | Jason Dorsey and Denise Villa : Zconomy: How Gen Z Will Change the Future of Business—and What to Do About It.
About the Impact Driven Leader Podcast
The Impact Driven Leader Podcast, hosted by Tyler Dickerhoof, is for Xillennial leaders who have felt alone and ill-equipped to lead in today's world. Through inspiring interviews with authors from around the world, Tyler uncovers how unique leadership strengths can empower others to achieve so much more, with real impact.
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A lot of times it takes work to step back and get out of autopilot and really try to see the world, or at least seek to understand the world, through those you’re trying to influence and connect with.
Jason Dorsey
Podcast Transcription
[TYLER DICKERHOOF]
As you know, as you've heard, part of this podcast is also doing the Impact Driven Leader round table. I want you to listen to this quick message, this is an invitation. I want you to come sit at our table. You're going to learn, you're going to grow and you can't help, but have a great time with us. And I invite you. You're listening. There's a seat for you with your name on it. Come join us.
[MOLLY]
Hey, this is Molly Sloan. The Impact Driven Leader book club and round table have been transformational for me. I've been involved for the past six months and it's taken me on a journey to be a better leader and a better person at work, at home, and really in every interaction with people. Tyler's done a great job of guiding us through the books. They're current, thought-provoking and they apply to all of us. The weekly round table has become an accountability team. I've done lots of leadership trainings in the past where you feel on top of the world, the week after the event, but ultimately it wears off over time. This group is better. We're on a leadership journey with each other through frequent, ongoing discussions and continual growth. I strongly recommend this group to anyone aiming to continually develop as a leader.
[TYLER]
Welcome back to the Impact Driven Leader podcast. This is your host, Tyler Dickerhoof. Glad to have you here ss we are kicking off a new month, a new month in the book club. This month, we're going to be reading the book Zconomy by Jason Dorsey and Denise. They are a husband and wife, couple. They run CGK Research Institute going through all generation stuff. That's what I have to say. In this book is Zconomy, Jason and Denise really break down and really establish how Gen Z looks and operates. This was written, came out the end of 2020, so there's some early COVID stuff. You're going to hear in this episode, as I talked to Jason, we're going to break down some of that stuff. We're going to break down why Gen Z is the way they are.
They're not just a younger millennials. It's a totally different generation. Here's the biggest thing that I caught and I want you to catch during this; is when businesses, leaders, organizations they market to, they adapt to, they look to empathize. We talk about that a lot. With Gen Z, they don't ostracize their other generations. They actually become more relevant to them. As he shares, if you skip out and say, "Hey, Gen Z is not my clientele, I'll just focus on the boomers. I'll just focus on the gen X, maybe the millennials," what's going to happen is you're going to lose your business. That's what Jason says. I see that. I agree with that. Generations, don't shark technology. The early adopters start to embrace more and more. It's like the 80 year old that's on his iPhone, doing whatever.
You know, friends talk about their grandma who's more tech savvy than they are. Those are the people that drive generations. I believe this. The more that we understand, the more that we appreciate generations, the more that we're going to be able to be better leaders going forward. That's what I love about their work. That's what I love about this book, Zconomy. I hope you get great information out of it. This is a great conversation. We kind of go all over the place. We talk a little bit about South Korea, we talk about just the world events, but it was a fun conversation to talk about generations and leadership. And if you're here, listen to this podcast. We talk about leadership. You're going to get value out of this episode today. Let me know what value do you get out of it? Give me a review, give me a rating, let me know what you think of this, and I will see you at the end.
[TYLER]
Here's what I want to say, one, it's very nice to meet you. I've been looking forward to this. I'm thankful that I was able to get connected with you through Rory and I've been looking forward to this conversation for a while and I want it to be, and my hope for you is just very conversational. That's how I'd like to do my podcast. That's what I'm most comfortable. I hope you're comfortable that way.
[JASON DORSEY]
It sounds great. I'm wearing short sleeves, so it's the best I got here.
[TYLER]
I'm wearing a black t-shirt. It is a wardrobe that I embraced the start of COVID. It's like, if I'm going to be on. Zoom every day, do I don't want to worry about what should I pick out and that I don't have sweaty pit stains, so I'll just have black on and it's all good. Well I embrace the Steve Jobs effect and it's like, I can roll with this. My efficient brain is like, let's go. But going back to the comment about Korea and you were talking about Asian culture, we, I mean, amazing people, such kind people, embracing people. The issue we had is for them to be transparent with us because so often we're finding in challenges in business is they were afraid to tell us the truth. And working with a translator and it was just kind of like, we'll figure this out, we'll figure this out. Like, no, we're here to help you, to guide you, to be with you. And that was the challenge we had. So it was a great learning experience. It was a great, I think, leadership learning whenever you go through that, but that's what we found in South Korea.
[JASON]
Yes. One of the biggest things that, I haven't been to South Korea, but one of the biggest things that I've learned just traveling around the world, speaking in all these different countries is sort of, as leaders, people have a natural desire and a sort of tendency to take what works for them. They grew up whatever's comfortable or normal to them and then drop that into another geography or another culture, or even just another industry or business and end it without taking the time to really understand it deeply, understand that, bring people that can upgrade in our line of work we call it generational context but the idea that you're able to look through it and with many different lenses so that you can then approach it in a very educated way. And it's tough. Where I find it the most difficult is for people who have been very, very successful they often assume they can just take what they were, they've done somewhere that they were really successful and drop it somewhere else and it's just going to work. We see this in the self-help world a lot, somebody who's really good at one thing. And we call it the guru complex, which is you're really good at one thing so therefore you're good at everything. And as my wife will tell you, I can't hang a painting. It's one of the things that I'm terrible at. So fortunately for me, between her and my ten-year-old daughter, I've been very grounded to stick in my topic of generations.
[TYLER]
Well, this is not meant as a mock of you or Rory, but I see what you guys have in common. That's what the joke is that AJL hang stuff up and do all the carpenter work, whatever and Roy is just kind of like, I can help you put on makeup. I can help you put on all those things from what he learned from his mom, but ---
[JASON]
I'm not good with makeup, but I'm really good with [crosstalk] and the tables.
[TYLER]
You said something and I don't want to lose it. To me, you talked about the arrogance, I'm going to call it arrogance, because I believe it's arrogance is when people think, "Hey, this works here. I'm just going to go slap it down over there and it's going to work." And to me, it's as you talked about that, it's like, okay, what are the factors there? Is it lack of connection? Is it lack of empathy? Is it again, that arrogance that thinking I don't have to distill out what really works, what won't work? How is this different world people, but yet we're all different. I'd love to know like deeper your thoughts on that.
[JASON]
Yes. I see this happen a lot, and of course in my world, I tend to see it through speakers that have a speech and they show up and they deliver it somewhere and it doesn't go over well. And they're like, I didn't know why. Well, that's a highly regulated industry. They're legally not allowed to do three of the things you suggested. So I think that a lot of times, it takes work to step back and get out of autopilot and really try to see the world or at least seek to understand the world through those you're trying to influence and connect with. And I just think that's it's a hard thing to be able to do. It takes work. I mean, I was just talking with a speaker right before you and I hopped on and they're like, "Jason how did you know that client so well?
He and I spoke at the same conference. I was like, "Well I went to their website, read the social media, we did all our prep calls, I read their quarterly filings and then I went and I read the news articles about them and I got this." And he's like, "You do that for every client?" I'm like, "Yes, that's how I know so much about each of them. When you've done it 3000 times, you start to appreciate the fact that in this industry, you can't do that thing yet. Your favorite story absolutely will not connect there." And then in the example that you gave too, translation, you know slang gets crushed in translation. Inside jokes don't work. So really just seeking to understand that. So I think that, what sort of keeps people from it, one is just lack of experience.
In the biggest sense is, I don't know that it's arrogance. I think that's a big word, but I think a lot of people don't have the experience to know, oh, I can just pick it up and drop it somewhere. If you know that, and then you choose not to do it, then maybe you're arrogant or at the very least lazy. And then I think we've lost so much empathy in the world. And empathy is very different than sympathy. I think being empathetic to people in their experience and what they're bringing to everything that they do as best you can is really, really powerful. And part of that, just to be candid, is having a diversity of influences. And to me, what that means is being in situations where you're not always right, or where you're not in the majority, surrounding the people that have different informed perspectives, that may completely contrast with your own.
For me, that's been really important. I've lived in different places around the world and going to school in different places and certainly worked in so many and really trying to seek to understand what other people see in the world and how they see different experiences. And I have to frequently talk with entrepreneurs about this. You don't have to agree with them. Nobody's saying agree, but take the time to at least understand. Maybe you'll get to agreement. Maybe you won't. But if you take the time to really seek to understand and ask them, maybe they are of different political beliefs, or maybe they have a different religious belief than you. Maybe they grew up under a different system of government than you did. That doesn't mean it's right or wrong. It's just different than yours.
And for me as a study of humans, I studied human behavior, specifically about missing behavioral insights and tracking data, like what I really want to try to pull out is that nuance. Like, what is that nuance? What am I losing? What am I missing, that if I can just go a little bit deeper, I'll be able to sort of pull that forward and that will actually change how I think about things. So for me, any time as a leader you're going into a new environment, it's really important to do the pre-work to try to understand it as best you can. It's never going to be perfect, but taking the time that we do that.
The other thing I find is oftentimes, I see this in corporate boards because I work with lots of corporate boards, is people want to just jump on and join a board and then tell everybody what they think, which is the worst thing you can do when everybody here has been doing this for 20 years. Take the time to listen before you start preaching. So those sorts of things, again, it's just, it's taking that pause to not make an assumption and just sort of take it all in instead. For me, I think that's really important.
[TYLER]
So all of this is me getting, it has nothing to do with the podcast, I want to talk about, but I love this. I want to ask you. Well, no, but I mean, I say that is, honestly, so one of my last guests last week was Don Yaeger. Don Yaeger and I got to be good friends. I don't know if Don Yaeger or not. And one of the things that Don has complimented me in the past is like, "Tyler, you prepare." And I'm like, "Well, yes." And I've worked a lot with John Maxwell and mentorship there and the things that you pull out of is like, those are the things that I see John doing and learn from him. It's like, of course you prepare. I mean, I read your book last fall. I just re-read it. I made a lot of notes. I went through it. I studied about you. But I guess I would look at that from a standpoint of maybe it's my own ignorance.
You talked about speakers and I understand, like Don and I were talking about podcasters that didn't do that. And it's like the speakers go deliver to an audience. I'm like, how can you expect to add value if you're not going to do all the work beforehand to connect? It's kind of like people that date. In Gen Z dating is they're going to Google everyone and search them on social media before they ever go out on a date with them. I guess, and this has me intrigued because I feel this way and as we bring this up, to me, it's a core tenet of leadership and you're signifying as you're seeing this as a, and how we got started, it was crazy. But seeing this as a definitive point in gurus and leaders and people trying to serve others, it just, it's almost, I don't want to say it catches me off guard in a way, because I get it, but it's just, man, Jason, like help me understand why there's so few that feel that way.
[JASON]
Sure. I think on one hand to me, I didn't finish high school or college, which a lot of people don't know. It's sort of funny. I was just asked to join the board of my daughter's school and I've been asked to join the board of trustees of a famous university. I turned down both by the way. The thing that's interesting to me is like preparation is the price of entry for excellence, sort of how I think of it, in the sense that if I truly want to do a good job and I want to honor my time in those that are participating, do the work. What's taking to me is not that people don't do it. What's intriguing to me is people who know they should do it and still don't. They're like, "Oh, we can wing it."
That's always sort of fascinating to me just as a study and how committed are they with their craft or their message or the impact that they want to deliver. But sort of the bigger picture, I think so often now it's very easy to sort of superficially know people, which was to your example on Gen Z dating, but really all dating by the way now. People have gotten accustomed to, not only do they start many relationships and majority of our relationships through online dating, but they're going to check out the person, they're going to follow them, they want to be friends. If you want to be friends with me, then are we really dating? Like there's all that sort of jazz definitely going on. But I think now what we see the youngest generations, like what we study Gen Z and also millennials they're accustomed to going online just to seek truth.
Now whether or not it's accurate or true is a whole nother debate, but there's definitely this sort of knee jerk reaction of, oh, so-and-so wants to meet your. Or it could be as simple as I might want to work there. I'm going to go find out about them or their brand or product. Are they good for the environment? I'm going to go see if that really true. Like that sort of stuff, there's no questioning about should I go online and look for it? In fact, what we study is not just do you go online, but where do you go? Do you go to YouTube? Do you go to Snapchat? Do you go to Instagram? Are you on TikTok? I mean, I just was on a national TV show talking about Gen Z trust TikTok for financial advice, more than other outlets.
[TYLER]
That's crazy.
[JASON]
Yes. So that's, if you've been conditioned as a generation to find information online, primarily by the way, through your phone, not even through a laptop or tablet, then that is your path to truth. That doesn't mean you still won't vet it with friends and family and maybe experts to define that, but what's interesting is in one of our studies we did on Gen Z who, by the way is already 23, 24, maybe even 25 years old, we found with Gen Z is that many time, how they define an expert is different than other generations. So they might define it as somebody who has a bigger following on certain social media versus having a Ph.D. or being a CEO or something else. They also connect relate-ability to somebody being an expert.
Oh, do you really understand my life? Therefore, you're a better expert in sort of the problems that I have or the questions that I have. So the filter they're bringing to it is really powerful and so important for brands and leaders to know as they think about sort of what they're going to put out in the world online in particular. But what I find super fascinating, and I think about this a lot is how we all have this sort of path to truth that we're going on. Is it TikTok, is it Facebook? Is it YouTube? Is it Wikipedia? Is it calling up your grandpa and being like, "Do you remember this [inaudible 00:16:39] came out? Is it true that people would walk up to the GB and turn the knob?" Like whatever, but yes, we're just sort of understanding most of that's conditioned. There were people that went and got the encyclopedia.
So I just, it's very easy to say, "Well, clearly people are going to go to the same route as we are, which is, back to the original conversation, sort of taking something that worked in one place or in one situation, dumping it, and think it's going to work; is the same way thinking, "Oh, well, they're going to go figure this out the same way I will." That's completely false. And just being open to that is really exciting when you go, "Oh, wow, people are all looking at the world differently. And that doesn't mean they're right or wrong. It's just different than mine and what can I learn from them if I sort of hang out and try to take on that point of view?"
[TYLER]
To me that last point has probably only accelerated with millennials and Gen Z, because you think about it. So I'll be 42, was born in 79, you're similar age. If we wanted to go find information, it was a book, whether that was an encyclopedia, a library, may be going through those like scan file or whatever found stuff on newspapers. That's how you'd find information or you'd ask someone. And now I think about it as you talk about, my kids who are in that Gen Z, they're 13, 14, 11, and it's funny, we'll talk about something and they've already YouTubed it, Googled it. I mean, they've gone through all these, whatever they discern. But the key part there is when we looked at an encyclopedia, we believed it. We didn't have a filter that that was right or wrong.
It was in a book. You have to believe it. That's in a newspaper, you have to believe it whereas I wonder how much, as you bring this up, the Gen Z, because it's all, they have this filter that they don't even realize where they get to discern. It's almost like this deciphering code between what's real and what's not. Because I look at that and it's kind of like, when you talk about social media and TikTok, it's like, all right, who do I trust and who don't I trust in this filter that they start to create? Have you guys done much research into like how they filtered or is it like they don't even have currently know, they just do?
[JASON]
Yes. They're fairly aware of it depending on their age, because we would just ask them, take us through the journey of trying to solve this problem or learn about a brand or find a potential employer or determine if you want to open a bank account. And we can track them, because there's tons of analytics out there that will take us down that path. Particularly as you go further down the funnel where there's more attribution, but at a high level too, when you ask them about where did they start, what do they trust and you get that great data, particularly if it's very recent, like from today, if you were to do this, or give them a problem, it's tends to be fairly consistent in many parts of the world. By the way, it does vary based on geography.
I know you're familiar with our work. One of the things we talk about so much is that generations vary around the world and there's sort of this myth that if you're a boomer in the US and you're a boomer in India, you have very similar preferences. And it's not true. Now what we've actually proven is that the younger you go, the more consistency there is in the world because of free or cheap or inexpensive mobile devices. And as we've driven up the cost of smartphones in particular, some parts of the world now you get a phone for free if you use it for payments. So think of it like a bank or credit card, and then you get the phone benefit for free. So there's more similarity than ever before, but at the same time, they're still important to geographic differences.
So yes, we can figure out how each generation sort of goes to look for answers. And by the way, it varies based on what it is. So if you're going to buy your first house, who you're going to talk to and how you're going to go down that path, it's going to look very different than if you're going to buy sneakers. So being aware of that, the situation you give well, you'll get different answers. The thing that concerns me the most is somebody who's a researcher of this, is when it comes to certain things like ideology, politics, just broad views of the world, the way the algorithms work in social media is whatever you obviously respond to the most it serves you more of. So you end up in this big echo chamber, which unfortunately not just for young people, but for all generations can really distort the view of the world become highly polarizing as we we've clearly seen played out here recently, because you feel like everybody is has the same view and if they don't clearly, they're almost like the enemy.
And the more they create this us versus them mentality the more engaged you are and the more upset you are at the other group, and you sort of rush to the polar ends; is really problematic as we actually work find connection and unity and trust and work together to solve problems that it turns out we're really not that far apart on. It becomes much harder when your whole view of the world and sort of your filter for truth is through digital platforms that want you to be polarized, that want that emotional charge. So that's the sort of thing. Now, by the way, that's not just social media, just to be crystal clear. It's the same thing that plays out in cable news, plays out in many of the outlets, even plays out in educational groups.
I mean, there's a lot there to unpack, but at the end of the day, I think what's interesting is by generation, you can see how people go to learn about, engage the world and find their truth. And then as humans do, by the way, this is not a generational thing, humans tend to seek reinforcement of what they already believe. It's the most comfortable thing. So the more we dismiss something that we don't agree with and go, "Huh, see, I told you that. We found this one thing over here." So we seek that and there's lots of psychology around that. But what gets me excited though, at the end of the day is when you look across generations, people still want to be valued, they want to be included. They want to have a purpose in their life. They want to feel challenged. Like they're actually learning and growing.
And I think we're still a lot more alike than we are different. It's just, we focus so much on the differences. And I think we tend to dwell on things that we're really different on. We can lose sight of what brings us together. And my whole work, the talk that I primarily give is called crossing the generational divide, because what I'm trying to do is celebrate each of these differences that we do see, honor them, be excited about them, but at the same time, we can also work together. We can create great customer experiences, great employee experiences, great team member experiences and drive innovation. I mean, we need diversity of thought to foster innovation. It's not going to have another one.
So the more that we can see that we can work together, we can get along, we can solve some of these big problems, not all of them. There's things that are just sort of intractable, but generally speaking, there's a lot. We can make a lot of progress if we're willing to have those conversations. And for me, if I can help put people's sort of impossibility and humanize what's going on, then we can have those. And that's super exciting. That's what gets me fired up for the work that I ---
[TYLER]
I mean, that's what gets me excited. It's funny kind of getting into this now. We talked about having a conversation and this has been a fun conversation. Like I come to these to learn and that's stuff I'm learning. And the first time I heard you it was global leadership summit and I'm like, "Ooh, that's really great stuff." And then as your book came out and it's like, I had to get it and decided to get it and dug into it, and I'm like, this to me is leapfrogging the experiences we had with millennials to get farther ahead. But this is the biggest thing that, I kind of want to hang on the last thing you said is as we evolve as leaders and businesses to attract, market to and lead Gen Z, we're only getting better serving people because there's like a higher demand. There's a higher level that Gen Z demands that every baby boomer, every Gen Z, every millennial is going to appreciate.
Hey, you're going to have better marketing that's more targeted towards me. You're going to care about me as a person. You're going to connect with me. That's not going to like ostracize a generation. It's going to embrace. And I think to me, as a leader and seeing, as you've talked about to this, as a cusper I think growing up in the Midwest rural on a farm, I'm more of a gen X, because I never had cable until I got to college. So I see this as you talk about it in kind of your, it's on your breakdown of generations, Gen X, this millennial is the glue. To me, it's the bridge between the generations and the ability that we have as a generation to go from the baby boomers and really try to serve the Gen Z, as a holistic empathetic leadership group, man, we're going to have people buying together more than be ostracized. That's just my thought and opinion.
[JASON]
Yes, exactly. The way I think about it is, because I sort of view it as generations being closed, not a box. I know you've heard me say that a bunch, but I think that's really important. You don't put people in boxes. We try to find behavioral insights that we can, that have been proven through data that allow us to better understand, sort of see the world through different groups. The trick is when we look at sort of youngest to oldest Gen Z, or if you're listening outside the US Gen Z, Gen Z or Gen Z is really the best preview of the future, because what our research has shown at CGK, which is our research firm, Center for Generational Kinetics, and I talk about this a lot in the new books Zconomy, for the first time ever technology trends are being driven from the youngest up to the oldest.
This is a really important point because we work, I work with our organizations a lot. They're like, "No, Jason, we're fine. We can just stick with the millennials, Gen X and boomers." And I'm like, "No, no, you don't understand. It's not just about preparing to win Gen Z right now. What I'm telling you is if we don't win Gen Z, we're actually going to lose the other generations because they're becoming more like Gen Z. We see the two older one's behaviors, how they communicate, how they think about how they shop, how they buy, how they pay, all of those things." So as you think about it, that way, we're not asking people, organizations to cater or cuddle to people. We're not giving out trophies. None of that nonsense. What we're really trying to do is seek to understand this new generation, their view of the world, what they're fired up about, how they want to connect and so forth.
Because that also gives us a preview of what we need to do with the other generations. And then the flip side is when I speak with organizations or work with them, and they have a lot of Gen Z or millennials, we're doing the opposite, which is we're going to give them the secrets to be able to get promoted faster, drive more value, grow their sales, deliver better marketing because they can do it in reverse. It's the same sort of thing. We're just teaching them the opposite end of it. And to me, that's what generations is all about. It's understanding yourself, better understanding others better, and then giving you truly the choice to say, I'm willing to try something different to create this outcome I want.
And that's so important because it's always a choice. Nobody's saying to boomers you got to adapt to millennials by the way you raised them. The Gen Z who want to build great businesses, you can say, "Hey, you don't have to learn how to sell to Gen X or boomers, but if you don't, you're missing a huge market. And to me, I think that's where this conversation becomes very healthy and stays away from the us versus them. The Gen Z is making fun of the boomers. I was at an event recently and Gen Zs are like, "Oh, those boomers, they don't know anything about technology." I'm like, "Seriously? They invented the smartphone. You're making fun of them on it. They would not exist without them." And then the boomers are like, "Oh, Gen Z, they just blow their money." I'm like, "Actually their savings rates are very high." It turns out they're extremely frugal with their money. They have emergency savings accounts. They want to know about benefits from employers. It turns out they're a lot like you." It's just so funny.
[TYLER]
Well, I mean, it's so fun. You talk about this in your book that your wife's just a couple of years older. Denise's is the co-author.
[JASON]
Six years old.
[TYLER]
Six. I mean, she's robbing the cradle. Look at you.
[JASON]
No problem.
[TYLER]
And then your daughter's Gen Z. And that's again, myself, and I look at my kids and they're now starting to go through this fiscal exploration. What's funny is I started with a bank account when I was eight. I tried to get my kids set up and you can't. So get him set up with Venmo, get him set up those things, because that was the option for them to be able to move money. And I wanted them to be able to handle it on their own. And just last night I pick up my daughter, she went to the mall with her friends and I'm like, "All right. So what did you buy?" My wife gave her a hundred dollars cash. It's like, great, go use it. And she goes, "Oh, I didn't spend that. I spent $15, got a shirt. We're going to go thrift shopping and I ended up using a gift card and got this purse." And she was excited about the fact that she didn't spend much.
She had the money to spend and it was kind of like her expressing this fiscal responsibility. And you talk a lot about that in the book. And I think that is, to me, it's going to be very interesting. I know that as a generational researcher, we have this worldwide event and when was the last time we had a worldwide event that would define a generation, and COVID did that and to see how do all of these Gen Z and whatever it gets called splinter out of it, how their activities, I think it's going to be enthralling, one as a parent. But as a researcher, I can imagine it's like, all right, how does this start to creep out? How do they start to evolve and change? What can we learn from them?
[JASON]
Yes, absolutely. And you're right. In the Zconomy book, I talk a lot about how parenting, so there's different trends that we study that impact generations, parenting being one of them, technology, mobility, access to healthcare. We can go through a whole bunch. And then you have these generation defining moments, which are those sort of where were you on events? For millennials in the US it could be 9/11. For other generations might be the JFK assassination or landing on the moon. We can go through a whole bunch of these challenger explosions and so forth. So sometimes you have those. In other parts of the world you might have, Brexit is actually a really big one for Gen Z, for example, in Europe. So as we think about these different events and what's going on with the pandemic, in the book, the fiscal piece is really interesting because what we find is that there's sort of two things that are going on one, because Gen Z, particularly in north America and in particular in US came of through the great recession.
They really carry that with them. They felt the pain and the weight of their parents struggling, losing their house, losing their job. And even though Gen Z was young, they were only 12, 13 at most. What happened though, is they were old enough to understand it, old enough to make different decisions because of that and old enough to say, I'm going to learn from this. I'm going to bring it forward as an adult. Whether or not they consciously did that, that's certainly what we see play out. The story I always joke about is Gen Z will have a birthday party. They're 16 years old, they'll get 50 bucks, they'll put the money away and they'll go back and ask their mom or dad, "Hey, can I have some money? I want to go buy something." And they'll say, "Well what about the money you got for your birthday?"
And they'll say, "No, no, that's my money. I want to use your money." And also even with the younger kids, like we, we use the Greenlight card at our house. That's something we're really excited about. And it's so funny because my daughter gets $5 for allowance when she does her chores. So I said to her, the other week, I said, "Here's your $5." She's like, "No, just put on my Greenlight card." I was like, "Well, don't you want the $5?" She's like, "No, how am I going to spend this $5 on Amazon in cash? Like you can't spend cash on Amazon." And it was funny because I was like, "Wow, she is completely right that she can not do anything with the cash that I just gave her." And it was really interesting to her that she connects money to something that's entirely digital.
And to her, that's her bank for spending, that sort of goals, that's what she thinks about her future. So you certainly have that. And then now we have this pandemic, as you talked about, and we've led numerous studies. So we've led more than 65 generational studies around the world on everything you can think of from cars and life insurance, to hotels and travel to technology, direct selling, like you name it. We're into all these sort of different industries. And what we found with the pandemic is initially, Gen Z, remember the oldest one are 23, 24-ish, Gen Z was the number one generation to lose their job, number one generation in reduction in pay, number one generation in reduction hours and the number one generation to have a change in their job roles. So if they did get to stay, they had to do something else.
And everybody kept saying, "Oh, the boomers are getting hammered the most than gen X or millennials." And it was totally not true. The youngest workers were the ones that really got hurt the most. Initially they suffered from last hired, first fired. They often worked retail, hospitality, all those sort of frontline businesses that also closed down and the least political relationships or political capital within a business. So they weren't the ones that got to stay and we can go through a whole bunch of things. So there's plenty more to that too, but, but the bottom line is the oldest members of Gen Z crashed into this. If they were at college or university, many times they had to come back home, maybe they never got to leave, they didn't have graduation, they didn't get to intern like all the snow summer jobs, the whole deal.
So what's interesting in our work is sometimes you have an event that can help to sort of split or in your word, splinter a generation. So what we're seeing is that now here we are coming out on the other side of the pandemic, knock on wood, certainly here in the US. What we're seeing is that the oldest part of Gen Z has had just a really challenging experience. And we predict they're going to have three to five years of negative economic consequences at a minimum. Because if you're graduating college with a degree in, I don't know, hospitality management, and there are no jobs, it's just tougher for you. And we could go through a bunch of other examples of that, but here's where it gets super interesting. So there's oldest Gen Z, they had the rug pulled out from underneath them. Many times they had to move back home or stay home. They lost that independence, that self-reliance, that sort of, those key years for them to get into the workforce.
What's interesting though, is if you go younger than that and let's play it out 10, 12, 15, even 16 years old, your experience was very different. Yes, you went to homeschool or virtual school or hybrid school, and it was completely uneven around the US and certainly across the world, based on socioeconomics, single parent household. Did you have a computer or did you have a laptop? Did you have a smart phone? Did you have none of that? Like, there's so many things that made it massively uneven around the world. But what's interesting though, is that the more runway you have before you have to jump off after graduation, the more opportunity you have to learn from those ahead of you. So you could say, "Hey, I'm not going to study those things, or I'm going to stay at home, or I'm going to do different things like that."
So you actually have more runway to make different choices, whereas those who were already 18, they were already out. They couldn't make that back up. So what we think could happen is sort of like what we saw with millennials, where the oldest millennials crashed in the great recession in the US, really struggled, wage stagnation, rising costs of living, higher unemployment rate, the boomerang moving home, all that sort of jazz. But then if you look at the younger millennials, they've benefited from a really robust recovery and had sort of the opposite experience. So even though they're the same generation, because of sort of where they hit that macro event, they had frankly, different experiences. Or we think that could happen with Gen Z because the younger ones, what did they learn?
Well, my daughter goes to homeschool right now. So she's in school all day long, Google classroom and to her, it's now totally normal. It's been a year. You do your presentations, you do your math work, you do your science, you do whatever it is you do and like, that's just normal to her. So all of a sudden learning is completely normal to do through screen. Does she love it? No, but she's gotten good enough at it where she can make it work and she just keeps going. And I share that because this could be, in some ways, turned into an advantage to some of the skills that younger members of Gen Z have learned that they can then take forward with them. Now the social and emotional weight of this pandemic on them is extraordinary. We don't focus on mental health specifically, but at a high level, we do ask questions around that. And it has been really, really hard on the youngest generation.
I know in our house, it's been very hard for our daughter. We have an older child. But what's really interesting if you go even younger, check this out for the first time ever, we believe we know where the next generation starts. The oldest of which are 2, 3, 4, maybe even five years old, because for them, this pandemic has been a very different experience. Maybe one of their parents or both their parents were around a lot more. They got to be home and it's just, you don't have that, the kids are not old enough to sort of contextualize what's going on, feel all those negative emotions and do all that because you have to be a certain age to really be able to do that. It's how we knew when millennials ended and Gen Z started.
Millennials have to be old enough to understand what will happen on 9/11. And if you did not, if you're not old enough to do that, or it was always history, you're not a millennial. It's pretty simple. But that's why it's not actually birth years, millennials don't end in 2000, you have to back up a few years because those 2, 3, 4 year olds still don't remember what happened on 9/11, unless they were particularly close to it. So as we think about this, Gen Z who were closely studying right now, they're going through all these sort of key life stages. They're in adolescents or going into that early adulthood. They're now the fastest growing generation in the workforce. It will be for the next 15 years. They're going to start driving all these different trends. We've already seen it with tech adoption. We've seen it with banking. We've seen it with couponing, as you point out, we've seen it with dating.
So there's lots of change that this generation is driving, but they're still early. So when I speak to executives or entrepreneurs, they're like, "Jason, why don't you talk about Gen Z so much?" I'm like, "Because how many of y'all struggled with millennials?" I mean, everybody raised their hand. They're like even the millennials and they're raising their hand. Like you waited too long. You waited until they were a problem and then you started doing that and you're like, ''Whoa, now I got to play this massive game of catch up," where right now you have this moment, you don't have to do that. You can grow with the generation as they emerge. And that to me is what's so incredibly exciting. It only happens like literally once in a generation. So this is the time to get to do it since I'm so passionate about it.
[TYLER]
Well, I think what's cool about that is really, it kind of I would guess, and look back in your research between Gen X and baby boomers and the greatest generation, there were changes, but not as fast. So management and leadership could evolve slowly through it whereas the the recent millennials in the workforce and how they're so much different, how they learned what they wanted, what they expected from a job. And now Gen Z, it's kind of like, oh, snap, this isn't the same old stuff. I need to address this differently, which, I had someone to refer this to me and I want to ask you about it is one of the things that they theorize on this is that the previous, the older generations were more transactional. Come, show up job, get paid, move on whereas the younger, you know millennials and especially Gen Z, they look at work as transformational.
It's like, Hey, I'm coming here to learn. I'm coming to learn. And I think a lot of that is how many people, roughly our age went to college, got a degree and then all of a sudden go to a job. It's like, "Oh, now I have to learn how to actually do the job that I went to college for because college didn't really teach me." And I think that was a lot of this millennial generation or even some of the younger gen X. So I wonder as leaders, how much is now the opportunity to say, "Hey, we're here to really teach and transform and help people grow as part of our leadership culture and that's part of our job and not just expecting them to come in and do their job and be happy."
[JASON]
Yes. So I don't know who you had on, but I would disagree with their analysis. And the reason is if you look at longevity with an employer, it was dramatically longer with baby boomers, dramatically longer than with subsequent generations. Remember boomers were the people that worked at the same employer, 10, 20, 30 years. And that was normal. Job hopping is actually a newer phenomenon than people think. And what happened is, as Gen X was coming of age, Gen X came of age right when those boomer promises were really broken. And what I mean by that is companies had said, we'll employ you for life and then we'll give you great benefits. And there was all sorts of things around employer, employee, relationship and expectations. It was a job. If you went to IBM, you started there and you finish there or General Motors or any of these places.
My dad was laid off from General Motors. It's the oldest memory I have of him, being laid off. And I remember him crying. That's a big guy. And even now we talk about it. He's like, "That's the only job I ever wanted. All I wanted to do is work at GM," and then he got laid off. So because of that, that's when the employer, employee contract really changed. Was that the moment when they started breaking it, initially it was employers for lots of different reasons and then all of a sudden you saw the retirements change and other benefits. So Gen X came of age, very skeptical, and they were the ones who said, "Hey, if this is not working for me, I'm going to look somewhere else. And that's okay because I saw what happened to the generation before me."
Now, interestingly, when we survey Gen X alone, Gen X still expects new hires that they bring on to hopefully work two, three or more years, maybe even longer if you've got an opportunity there. Now, it's out of sync, as the younger you go, the shorter they think it is to be a loyal employee. It's just the reality of it all. I want to try some different things, see what works for me. But this is where I, one of those findings, it's so fascinating to me, what we started to see though over the last two years, pre-pandemic, was that Gen Z expected they'd have to work longer at a place in order to get promoted, in order to build a career. In fact, some of our really large employers who would get their employment data, prior to the pandemic, their Gen Z retention was actually better than their millennial retention because remember millennials came of age and it was hop, go after the next job and stock options. And you can't move forward in your career unless you move around, which by the way, statistically is not true.
But that's sort of what stuck. So people ran with that. Gen Z, we find really seek stability. They really want stability. Think about how much they've been through. So for them, mobility is very important. In fact, we have to teach startups to talk about how stable they are, if they really want to attract Gen Z, because Gen Z doesn't realize that there's stability rounding. You can have a small business at stable. You don't have to be a big business to be stable. So to your other point about being transformation, I think that's very true. The expectation of employees, particularly the younger you go is that they're going to get more from an employer than a dollar, or just getting paid and that you're in some way, as an employer, going to help them to develop their skills, develop their abilities, their talents, help them to sort of operate better in the world.
And that's puts a lot of pressure on employers because remember employers aren't designed to do that. Employers are designed to recruit and then retain and pay you and then move you over some career advancement pathway until they think you've risen to as far as you can go. That's sort of the old typical corporate structure where you've got Gen Z and millennials saying, no, we want flat structures and we want to work in cross-functional teams and I want to rotate to different jobs and like this whole thing, which is putting a lot of pressure and I expect you to give me training opportunities that are going to develop my skills and help me to figure out what I want to do.
And there was this whole thing too, back in the, because we worked a lot in startups as Venture Capital. There was this perception for awhile, people kept saying newer employees are doing a tour of duty. They're going to take a tour through your company and then they're going to go somewhere else. And that's really hard for certain generations to get excited about. But the flip side is if people see your company as really there to help them, help employees to develop their talent and become better people in the world and so forth, then you'll continue to attract great people. The problem is when you don't do that and you lose employees, then you're in this awful cycle of struggling to hire because people don't see it as advancing their career themselves. And you're losing the talent that you do have.
So we believe it's very important that we teach a lot of employers, how do you create these talent development programs that are low costs, where we can sort of lightweight, but still deliver real value so that without you doing it, being an imposition to that employer, like, I'm actually talking about this tomorrow to a big company in Canada, to this webinar is how do you develop talent development programs right now during the pandemic, if you don't have anybody leading your talent program; Which is a fascinating conversation. It's like, "Hey, you can build this whole thing for $0. I'll walk you through exactly how to do it," but it's just different because of course they think, well, we got to get in person, which we can't do and we need a rigid curriculum. I'm like, "No, we don't need any of that stuff. This is a generation that goes to YouTube to learn everything. Like we can totally make this work."
[TYLER]
Yes. I think it gets back to that. Empathy is having the desire to care, to say, "Hey, I want to help you. I don't know exactly what you need, but I'm willing to. Let's work at this together. Let's find a solution." And it's really, it's making that partnership in a way. And one of the things that I viewed is be an incubator rather than incinerator. The best thing you can do is develop somebody and help them grow and maybe they'll grow to a different company. Well, that's fine. If they grow within your company, they're going to serve you. But if you look at everyone as, oh, they're just here to do a job short-term and I'm just going to burn them out until they do that tour of duty, to me, that's hard because then we start creating that culture of you're only good enough for whatever you're giving me today, as opposed to I see you worth so much more. How can I help you grow into that? How can I help you develop into that?
[JASON]
Yes. And we see that in different industries in different ways, but there's sort of this normalized take on what normal room turnover is. So people say, "Oh, I work in the restaurant industry. It's totally acceptable to have 200% turnover." Or, "I work in automotive and we have 150% turnover." And people say, "Oh this is just normal." And then I go work with these restaurant brands that have dramatically less. I work with these auto groups that have dramatically less and it just, it's whatever you believe about that is what you're going to bring into the world. And I think the more there's transparency of what's going on in companies, which is one of the key themes of gen Z millennials. They're going to look at your ratings, your reviews, they're going to look what employees are saying, they're going to find out who they're connected to.
They're trying to make form decisions and it's not as hard now because it's all online and it's basically all free. So all of a sudden what's really going on is increasingly shown or at least different versions of that. So you want to be careful now. I will tell you, and I tell this at gen Z millennials all the time, like, who do you think writes ratings and reviews? The people that are really happy or the people that we're not happy? And you got to sort of take away the grain of salt and make sure you talk to people and you get sort of multiple different sides. But so often the idea though, is that that companies are sort of known for, like, we have an employee, our longest tenure employee, I think she's worked with us now for 13 years.
And if somebody want to know what it's really like to work in my company, I'm like, "Well, why don't you go call Emily? She's amazing. And she'll tell you what it's really like. She's been here when we had one employee. She's been here when we had eighteen employees." So it's just like really trying to understand that and letting people get a sense of that, I think is so important. And again, not seeing it as transactional, but really seeing this as more of an agreement, like I'm going to help you you're going to help me. If we do this, we're all going to win. We're all going to move forward. And I just think we've got to reframe a lot of that conversation. It's not about just extracting value. It's like, "Hey, let's work together. Let's have this shared definition of success. We don't have to agree on everything, but we can certainly directionally agree." And that I think people get fired up about.
[TYLER]
Well, and even appreciating to agree for a time, saying, "Hey, your life is going to change. Your needs are going to change and that's okay and so are ours." So that collaborative effort where you can kind of meld back and forth.
[JASON]
Yes, absolutely.
[TYLER]
I have one question and I'm going to ask it because I'm really intrigued how many people are asking it and then dig into it. As generational, the difference between knowledge workers and physical workers, and really approaching that to say, hey, how many people, how many companies are asking about that as a real issue, knowledge workers, physical workers; meaning knowledge workers, someone that's going to do spreadsheet more or however you want to describe that as opposed to physical workers. Like your dad put together a chassis, doing construction, doing labor work, how are companies and generations, how are they viewing that?
[JASON]
Yes, well, obviously I can't speak for all companies, but the ones that we tend to talk to see them a lot more alike than different in the sense that, what works with knowledge workers, because we've done a lot of work. We call them creatives, but whatever you want to call it, people that tend to work in front of a screen, sort of how we would define it in many ways, yes, their workplace might look different. It might be their home. It might be their home office. They might go to some shared workspace, maybe hire desks, so they show up once a week, like whatever it's. What we find though, is what engages them is the same thing that engages the welder that's building underground pipelines who, by the way, that's an actual client of ours.
And that industry is saying, "Hey, how do we better recruit?" Well, it turns out it looks very good than knowledge workers. How do we continually train and get people excited to work here or pay 'em really good money. So what do to train them so that they feel like they're valued and we're developing their talents and how do we get them to refer their friends and so forth? So I think companies are sort of, over time some industries that's happened a lot faster than others, recognizing that technology really is this great through line that's going to connect these different generations and the different roles within our organization and create that knowledge, share and engagement. And that's why all these interesting engagement platforms at the same time, I think technology alone doesn't solve the problems. You know, you still need leadership, you need people that are out there to problem solve.
You know, when you're out there in the field, doing whatever it is that you're doing, like there's things that technology just won't solve and you need to be able to, on your own and then with the team and then know how to ask for help and actually solve it. And so I think there's a little bit of a balance between the two, but there's a lot more similarity than people would assume. in fact, I'm speaking to a company here I just was talking to them this morning. They've been in business more than 40 years and they're in the lawn care space and they're using technology in all kinds of creative and in innovative of ways in order to drive engagement and recruiting and help the people that they serve and like, to them, of course, you're going to do that and you got to continue to reinvent yourself. How else are you going to compete?
So again, I think the best practices that work in one probably are a lot more applicable from in knowledge workers, with people that might have more sort of hands-on jobs than people would think. And interestingly, those hands-on jobs through this pandemic were often very secure. You know, if you worked at manufacturing, you had to show up, you still show up. If you worked in construction, you still showed up. If you're in all these different things, if you're in pass control, you still showed up. So I think sometimes we forget that. And in fact, many of those were the most stable jobs during this period of time where others were not able to, unless you're on the sort of far extreme, like in cloud computing and stuff.
So I get excited because I think now for the first time, when you think about things like even payroll, how people think about accessing their money and communication, how are they going to stay in touch with their bosses and you start to look at companies, you got like alert media that allows you to stay connected people on emergencies and send out messages. One company that's in the Zconomy book, you probably read it Enboarder, they do onboarding completely by text message. Well, that works whether you're working on an oil pipeline or whether, working in a hospital or you work for some high tech company, everybody turns out wants that. Or Instant, I think they're in the book too. I know they are, you may have seen, they figured out how to pay all employees half their wages every day at no cost. Like, well, all of a sudden everybody's like, "Well, of course I want that option. Maybe I want my $25 or $70 a day."
So yes, I'm super excited about the future of work. I'm super excited about employers recognizing that they've got to continue to adapt. And I'm really excited about these emerging generations bringing a different point of view and a skillset that I think can really add a lot of value, but mostly what I believe we still got to continue to do is celebrate those differences, the differences by generations and every other kind of difference that we bring, because that's, what's going to make this work for all of us. We've still got to come together even though we are different. And that I think is so incredibly important.
[TYLER]
Well, that is the premise that I really believe is part of that glue and the Gen X millennial, but it is really coming to grips with in displaying empathy and a healthy empathy. And, to me, there's a spectrum on empathy and it's, as you've talked about so much is, "Hey, wouldn't we display that when we care, when we try to find things that are good solutions for everyone, regardless of what age they are?" That's a good solution for our business. And to me, that's being an empathetic leader and that's what I'm here to champion and celebrate. So man, a great conversation, went a lot of different ways, and I have fun sharing this with people and excited to have your book as a part of our book club and leaders be able to dig through that here this summer. I got so much value out of it. I got so much value out of it. Again, thinking as a leader, how can I do a better job? How can I do a better job serving my kids and the next generation? So I thank you guys for all the research you're doing and I love it. It's making me a better leader and I know it will help others too.
[JASON]
Awesome. Well, thank you, Tyler. It's an honor to get to be here with you and I know you're out there really improving the world, so thank you for what you do and how you live your life and thrilled that Zconomy got featured in your book club. Woohoo. After two years, we're all very excited to be in a book club. So thank you for that. Really appreciate it.
[TYLER]
Yes. I'm excited to read it again for the third or fourth time with the group and I know I'll even get more out of it. So I'm excited about that. And again, thank you for your time and thanks for being here, man. And I really appreciate you sharing and sharing from your heart, because I could tell.
[JASON]
Oh, thanks Tyler. I love this work. So thanks so much for having me on. All right, best of luck with everything.
[TYLER]
I could have gone on that conversation with Jason for hours. I could have sat down with him and said, "Hey dude, let let's just go grab some dinner. Let's just spitball about this. Let's talk about it." You picked that up early in the interview as we just started kicking off. I noticed a book in his background, it was Korean and off we went and to me, that's what makes these podcasts fun. I hope you're getting value out of it. I get a ton of value out of getting to know authors like Jason, like my other guests and reading their books and reading their books with other leaders.
Part of our round table is we get together once a week on Zoom and we start to discuss these books or what's going on in each individual's career and how are they being challenged. And maybe it's been by some of the other books in the past, in this current book. So I'm excited to do that every single week. It's a highlight of my week. I'd love to invite you to be a part of that. Come join the round table. If you're already listening to this podcast, just click on the link to join that. We'd love to have your part of it because one that's where I get to know you better. And I found, I learn a lot. Every other part of the round table learns a lot and I'd love for you to be a part of it, part of this Impact Driven Leader, community, where we all are here to grow together, to be the healthiest leaders we can be. That's my goal. That's my purpose. That's my mission. And I hope you're getting healthier by listening to this so you can become a better leader. That's my hope and desire and thank you again for listening and I'll see you next episode.
