IDL26 Season 1: I Love it Here with Clint Pulver
Why do managers matter? How can you evolve from a manager into a mentor? What are the top characteristics that every mentor has?
Clint Pulver addresses these important points today and shares how leaders can continue to serve people. Listening to this, you’ll see why he is known as The Employee Retention Expert, as he helps organizations retain, engage, and inspire their team members from the front desk to the board rooms and everyone in between. Clint expertly helps audiences navigate generational complexities, communication challenges, leadership missteps, and cultural cues.
Meet Clint Pulver
Clint Pulver is a professional keynote speaker, author, musician, pilot, and workforce expert. Known as the leading authority on employee retention, Clint has transformed how corporations like Keller Williams, AT&T, and Hewlett Packard create lasting loyalty through his work and research as the Undercover Millennial.
He has been featured by Business Q Magazine as a “Top 40 Under 40,” and, as a professional drummer, he has appeared in feature films and on America’s Got Talent. In 2020, Clint won an Emmy Award for his short film Be a Mr. Jensen, which tells the story of how a single moment in time—and one particular mentor— can change the course of a life.
Visit his website. Connect with him on Instagram and LinkedIn.
Subscribe to his YouTube channel and get his book here.
In this episode we discuss:
Moving beyond generations
Why managers matter
Evolving from manager to mentor
How to better serve as a mentor and a leader
MOVING BEYOND GENERATIONS
“I think first off that the quicker we can get away from looking at people as a generation, the better off we will all be. ”
The idea of dividing up entire populations based on their date of birth can be beneficial at times – because those people shared some cultural similarities – but it can also be unnecessarily divisive.
Have an idea of the generation at hand, but do not think that you have to cater to an entire generation, focus on the individual instead.
“You cannot put millions of people in a box based off of the year that they were born. Now I will say this, those people have grown up in a specific time that influences how they think or the things they do and the things they don’t do. But the better we can get at approaching people as individuals, not as a generation, the more significant we have the ability to become. ”
WHY MANAGERS MATTER
“The two variables … are standards and connection. If an employee was dissatisfied with their job I can go back and figure out why based off of the standards and the connection of the company, or the lack thereof. I can also, if an employee loved their job, go back to those two variables.”
The Removed Manager: Low on standards and low on connection. This creates a disengaged workforce.
The Buddy Manager: High on connection but low on standards. This creates entitlement.
The Controller: High on standards but low on connection. This creates rebellion and pushback.
The Mentor Manager: High on standards and high on their ability to connect. This creates respect.
“In our research, when an employee hated their job, they talked about the manager. When an employee loved their job, they talked about the mentor. ”
EVOLVING FROM MANAGER TO MENTOR
The first thing to realize is that you cannot control other people. You can only control yourself. Many managers who antagonize their employees do so by trying to always micromanage and control them.
Five characteristics of a mentor:
Confidence: a mindset that exudes trust.
Credibility: a mentor who has a history of success in the industry.
Competence: a mentor who is a practitioner, not only a theorist.
Candor: the ability to have honest communication.
Caring: the ability to truly care about employees as people.
People in business who have these traits are often viewed by their employees as mentors, not only as leaders, because displaying and embodying these traits shows employees that their mentors genuinely care for them as well as for the business.
How can mentors and leaders better serve their employees and continue to provide genuine work opportunities?
HOW TO BETTER SERVE AS A MENTOR AND A LEADER
Growth opportunity: If people can’t grow where they’re at, they will go and grow somewhere else
Recognition: Help people see that they are being seen. Vocal praise is the number 1 thing that people wanted the most.
Time: Focus a bit more on spending some real time with your people instead of focusing on the to-do lists
“People need to have something to look forward to. People need to have something to dream about. People need something to chase.”
Resources, books, and links mentioned in this episode:
Visit Clint’s website. Connect with him on Instagram and LinkedIn.
Subscribe to Clint’s YouTube channel and get his book here.
The Impact Driven Leader YouTube Channel
Join the Impact Driven Leader Community
Connect with Tyler on Instagram and LinkedIn
BOOK | Clint Pulver: I Love It Here: How Great Leaders Create Organizations Their People Never Want to Leave
About the Impact Driven Leader Podcast
The Impact Driven Leader Podcast, hosted by Tyler Dickerhoof, is for Xillennial leaders who have felt alone and ill-equipped to lead in today's world. Through inspiring interviews with authors from around the world, Tyler uncovers how unique leadership strengths can empower others to achieve so much more, with real impact.
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YOU CANNOT BECOME A MENTOR UNTIL THE MENTEE INVITES YOU INTO THEIR HEART.
Clint Pulver
Podcast Transcription
[TYLER]
As you've heard, part of this podcast is also doing the Impact Driven Leader round table. I want you to listen to this quick message, this is an invitation. I want you to come sit at our table. You're going to learn, you're going to grow and you can't help, but have a great time with us. And I invite you. You're listening. There's a seat for you with your name on it. Come join us.
[MOLLY]
Hey, this is Molly Sloan. The Impact Driven Leader book club and round table have been transformational for me. I've been involved for the past six months and it's taken me on a journey to be a better leader and a better person at work, at home, and really in every interaction with people. Tyler's done a great job of guiding us through the books. They're current, thought-provoking and they apply to all of us. The weekly round table has become an accountability team. I've done lots of leadership trainings in the past where you feel on top of the world, the week after the event, but ultimately it wears off over time. This group is better. We're on a leadership journey with each other through frequent, ongoing discussions and continual growth. I strongly recommend this group to anyone aiming to continually develop as a leader.
Welcome back to the Impact Driven Leader podcast. This is your host, Tyler Dickerhoof. Glad for you to be here. Glad you're listening in. And today I have a special treat. today's guest is Clint Pulver. He is the drumming, magical musician of drumming, but that's kind of like his side job. What he really is the undercover millennial. Clint went through the process of five years working in different organizations, doing 10,000 interviews. Get that. 10,000 interviews they did with primarily millennials, but a lot of cross generations where they interviewed employees and they asked them, why do you love it here? They got some amazing responses. Clint and I get into a great conversation. We have a lot of fun in our conversation. I would love nothing more to go to his event and learn how to drum.
That guy can drum. I can't wait for you to click on some of the links in the show notes so you can watch him do what he does. He's amazing at it, but I just love his heart. His love is to be a leader to serve and to make organizations better. And that's really to meet what an impact driven leader is about, is how do we become a better leader? This month, as we're talking about different generations from last episode of with Jason Dorsey, if you haven't caught that, go back and listen to that as we progress through the rest of the month. And we're talking about these generations and different ideas of how we can connect with people. You're going to get a lot from this episode with Clint, we had a lot of fun and I truly enjoy being around people like him because it makes me want to be a better leader. I hope that same impression comes upon you.
I'd love to know how do you know John?
[CLINT PULVER]
So John and I have spoken at events together in the past and then I've been just connected through, through Diana Kay as well, and obviously a big fan and yes, he's incredible, incredible human.
[TYLER]
Yes, he's a great guy. I have picture of him right here. I am thankful to call him not only a friend, a mentor but he is, I had somebody ask me this. And I even told John this. I said, I think I was talking to Mark Cola's CEO and discussing this like, "What does John mean to you?" And I said, "I don't think I'll be able to really fully comprehend that until he's no longer here. Until he's no longer living. I don't think I'll be able to comprehend." And just the again, spending 12 days with him in Israel to, going to be spending a couple of days with him here the end of April, and just found out, going to Costa Rica with him as well. So I just the days that I get to spend with John are ---
[CLINT]
Treasured.
[TYLER]
My life is on high. He brings out the best and it's amazing to watch it. And it's really encouraging from a leadership perspective to be able to say, how can I model that at least somewhat? Anyways, dude, I'm excited to chat with you. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to have you on my podcast. And I like to look at this as, you know there's a lot of podcasts, but I'd like to develop a friendship. And I hope we find that. We have a lot of mutual friends as we found this but I'm excited to hear all about Clint? I'll say before, I think it was, I was looking back to like, "How did I get to know Clint?" It was like a month ago, three weeks ago, and I think it was maybe John shared something about your book and I'm like, "Who's this guy?" I'm not an America's Got Talent Fan, even though one of my close friends was on season eight, but I found out you were on America's Got Talent, do your stuff there, but you've lived a lot of life. And you're 34, right? 33, 34?
[CLINT]
33.
[TYLER]
33. Okay. So where do you want to start off man? Because we could, I just want to know about you and how you got to where you're at, and why you're passionate about what you're passionate about.
[CLINT]
Well, thanks man. There's a lot of things that I'm passionate about. Life is exciting. Life is, I think to be taste tested, if you will. They don't try different things out, but that fall on your heart strings and there's a lot of passions. And it's so fun that sometimes things in life that I planned for, the things that I wanted or the things I was hoping for, it changes. It turns into something that I never would've thought I would have loved. So I was the kid that always had a hard time sitting still. I would just move all the time, had a hard time focusing and it happened again and again and again until one day. I had a teacher and his name was Mr. Jensen and he looked at me as I was tapping in class and he said, "Listen, kid. I need to see you after class. We're going to talk. We're going to have a conversation." He pulls me to the back of the classroom, everybody leaves, and I'm thinking, "This is it. I'm going to get kicked out of school as a ten-year-old."
And he's like, "I have a question. You're the kid that everybody sees as a problem. You have a hard time sitting still. I mean, you just tap. You tap in my class, you tap in everybody else's class." And he said, "I just watch you though and you'll sit there and you'll start writing with your right hand and then you'll tap with your left hand and then you can switch the pen and then you'll start writing with your left hand, you'll start tapping with your right hand." He looked at me and he's like, "I think you're ambidextrous." I'm like, "No, I'm Presbyterian." He's like, "No. That's not what it means."
He said, "Can you tap your head and rub your belly?" And I could do that. And he said, "Listen, I don't think you're a problem. I just think you're a drummer." Sometimes people hear that and they go, what's the difference between those two things. he created a moment that changed my life. I am a big fan of moments, Tyler. I think that's one Shapes our life story. We don't remember days. We remember moments. And in that moment, Mr. Jensen, the teacher leaned back in his desk and he opened up the top drawer and he reached inside and he took out my very first pair of drumsticks and he put them in my hands and he said, "I want you to keep them in your hands as much as you can." And that was 22 years ago and I can sit here today and honestly tell you, I've tried my best for 22 years to keep my promise to Mr. Jensen.
And I've toured and recorded all over the world as a professional drummer. I did the America's Got Talent thing that we talked about. I remember I graduated high school and I had no idea what I was going to do with the rest of my life. And they ended up going to college and I graduated with a bachelor's degree and zero college debt. And that was all from music scholarships. So that's a really pivotal story to who I am and a little bit of some of my background and interests and one teacher that changed my life with a pair of drumsticks that decided to advocate for a kid instead of develop them and in doing so, it changed everything for me.
[TYLER]
As I was getting ready for this and listened to your, the video of that story, which again, hearing you tell it in person is just as magical. And the note that I took from that is the impact of one person's belief. I mean, it can make a difference in everything. It's just one person believes. I shared with you kind of as we're getting ready for this. John Maxwell is a person who has shared that belief in me and that's what's given me the desire to serve greater. So I'd love for you to kind of, as you've evolved now and looking at that, and you obviously, you were, again, moved, just sharing that story. I think you're moved every time thinking back about Mr. Jensen, but how should the world understand that is the most magical gift we can give anyone?
[CLINT]
It's the ability to look at a human being and say, "I see good in you. I see possibility. I see worse. I see potential. I see a story that's not been written yet. I see the opportunity. That's what we need." And sometimes we don't see it within ourselves. I mean, you look at the Hawthorn Institute. They came out with this study two years ago, and I don't know how they figured this out, but it's interesting. They found that an average human will have anywhere from 15,000 to 60,000 thoughts in a day and the 80% of those thoughts were negative, in some way, shape or form. I'm not cool enough. I'm not pretty enough. I'm not skinny enough. I only got 56 likes on my Insta pic when I usually get 400 or why does Sally have 5,000 Facebook friends, and I've only got 300? Or, I mean, why does John like Jessica and not me. And we laugh at some of those things.
Some of those things might have been seen trite, but over time you compound 80% of negativity over time. And that shapes a lot of who you are, that shapes a lot of how you perceive the world and how you perceive yourself. Sometimes it takes a Mr. Jensen, it takes the John. It takes whoever it is, those mentors in your life, that in those dark days and those rough times, they look at you and they go, I just want you to know that when I look at you, I see this. And I want you to know that when I look at you, I see you becoming this because chances are, we don't see that within ourselves. We don't see that possibility. And it just takes those little moments where other people see something that can spark the possibility of what's been there all along.
[TYLER]
To me, and I think that's the great challenge of this Gen X going to millennial, Gen Z generations, and kind of as leadership is we get to rewrite that. Because if we try to fall into the pattern of the baby boomers or even the older generations, like the style of leadership was different. And I want to pose this question to you. And I think this goes along with your book, I Love It Here is do you think Gen Z and millennials are misaligned or misled?
[CLINT]
I think first off, the quicker we can get away from looking at people as a generation, the better off we will all be. I have seen so many times where leaders and people are like, "Gosh, dang millennials? I'll never hire millennials. They're lazy, they're entitled, they're selfish. They want this and that. They've got to have the ping pong tables and the beanbag chairs." I have found millennials that are like that. I have also found millennials that are incredibly loyal, thriving, talented, gifted, hard-working, willing to earn it type of individuals. And it bothers me, somewhat people in my industry and speakers and whatnot will come out with this marketing ploy that, "Oh, if you've got millennials, you've got to treat them this way." Or, "Oh millennials? Watch out. They're only going to buy this certain thing and this certain way. And if you don't, you're going to go extinct." Like it is a fallacy. It is a fallacy. You cannot put millions of people in a box based off of the year that they were born.
Now, I will say this, that those people have grown up in a specific time. That influences how they think, the things they do or the things they don't do. But the better we can get at approaching people as individuals, not as a generation, the more significant we have the ability to become and the moment we start trying to kind of figure out, all right, well, based off of your age and this generation, this is the way we should treat you. Or this is the stereotype, or this is the stigma. I think that can cause problems. It can cause misdiagnosis. And unfortunately I think a lot of those generations have been misdiagnosed.
[TYLER]
Well, I mean, if I took that and say, misdiagnosis is misleading them. It's not leading them properly because if you're not leading someone, to me, the greatest display of leadership is pouring belief into someone because that's, what's been done to me even. Great leaders have poured belief into me, encouraging. You know, it isn't this lead by fear, which you kind of get into in your book, and I'd love to kind of go through that, the four types of managers that you talked about in your book, I Love It Here. And I think it's a great way for people to identify the different styles. So man, I'd love for you to talk about that.
[CLINT]
So there's a really unique thing that we find obviously in the workplace. And management matters. I don't care what anybody else says. I mean, in our research and the depth of what we found, management matters. You're the number one reason why people stay. You're the number one reason why people leave. There's four types of managers in every organization, every organization. Now the two variables, before I dive into those four managers are this standards and connection. If an employee was dissatisfied with their job, I could go back and figure out why based off of the standards and the connection of the company or the lack thereof. I could also, if an employee loved their job, go back to those two variables.
So those are kind of what we'll use to kind of explain me somewhat. The first manager is what we call the removed manager. So they're low on standards, they're low on connection. What did this create in the workforce? Disengagement. These were the employees that are like, "Why should I care? My manager doesn't care or why should I show up on time? Why should I put in a hard day's work? My manager doesn't even know my name." Like that literally happened in the workplace. Disengagement. These are the managers that should have stopped managing 20 years ago. They're just burnt out. They're in the organization, they're not into the organization. Big difference.
The second manager is the buddy manager. This is the manager that wants to be everybody's friend. They are really, really high on connection, but they're low on standards. What does this create? Entitlement. This is the manager that's all about being everybody's friend. They want to be liked more than they're respected. They're the manager that would go and play Xbox on the weekends with all the team members and then on Monday, when they have to enforce rules and standards and regulations, people are like, "Yoh, Tyler [crosstalk]. Now you're telling me I need to increase my quota by 20%?"
[TYLER]
Dude, I feel, I feel like you've already described the movie Office Space in a lot of ways.
[CLINT]
Yes, absolutely. And that's where like the actual employee becomes more of the boss than the boss does because there's just that buddy connection. Number three, unfortunately, is the most common and it's what we call the controller. This is that manager that's really high on standards, low on connection. The old command and control style of leadership. "Put your head down, go to work. I'm not here to be your friend. Don't complain. Don't complain to me. Do you want to know how I show you that I love you. I give you a paycheck. Okay? Do your job. I'm not here to be your buddy. I don't care about what you did on the weekends, do your job." And this creates rebellion, pushback.
[TYLER]
Well, I think that was, one of the things that I've learned is that was a style that is very militaristic.
[CLINT]
Yes, big time.
[TYLER]
And so when you look back in generations that people that went through wars and went through, and if we look at the way it happened, that just became the style in a lot of workplaces and homes. So that became the style in workplaces and homes and so people just followed that. Whether they realize it or not, they just followed it.
[CLINT]
That's right. And they didn't have a choice. It was like, "You got a job. You glad you have a job. You got a pension. Hold onto the pension for the rest of your life. Be grateful."
[TYLER]
Especially when unemployment is really high and you're like, "Dude, you have a job. Do whatever you can to keep a job. You're miserable there. That's right. You got to just keep your mouth shut, do your job, get paid, because you got a job.
[CLINT]
Yes. And dude, we saw that so much in 2020. 2020 had record high retention rates where everybody's like, oh my gosh, I've got a job. Be glad you have a job. Everybody hunkered down. There's tons of uncertainty. But now, man, we did a research during the pandemic. We went to 47 organizations and two things were going to happen. I'm calling it right now, in quarter three and quarter four of 2021 as we come out of this crisis ---
[TYLER]
Okay, we're going to write this down.
[CLINT]
We are going to see a mad Exodus of people leaving their current jobs and their current employment for two reasons. Number one, they remember how they were treated during the pandemic. They will remember what you did. And I saw some horrific stuff, Tyler, of how bosses treated and just the lack of care and guidance and help and support and zero empathy. And it was all about survival, not about people's survival, but I also saw it on the flip side how leaders change that script. And yes, we need to survive, but you're also individuals and humans and we're going to make sure that you're safe and you actually feel safe. So that's number.
One second, when we get through all of this too, they've had time to think. Everybody's had time to think and the world looks a lot different in 2021 than it did in 2019. And a lot of jobs look a lot different. People are realizing I can live in Utah and work in New York and make three times the amount or I can live in Texas and work in California and save like thousands of dollars on rent, thousands of dollars on cost of living. Like the dynamic has changed and companies are realizing again that we've had to adapt. So that means that the job responsibilities have adapted as well. So man, if you are not connecting, if you are not creating a workplace where people can thrive and they're not just surviving, you are going to lose people as we come out of this. Because they'll remember. They all remember.
[TYLER]
I'm going to share a stat with you. I did a podcast yesterday, Richard Louis, that podcast is released by the time this will be out. And he shared this with me. He's an anchor with MSNBC and he said in their entire organization, MSNBC, 5% of their production team actually worked in the office. 95% of all the production you saw in 2020 coming out of MSNBC was not from people working in office. And as he and I talked about to this point, what's you're, again, stressing, which I think is great, when I hear it from multiple people, to me, that's a big deal. That means that, hey, this is something you got to take note of because 95% of the people can work anywhere they want in the world, take care of their family anywhere they want, but they also say, "Hey, I'm going to work for the company that embraces that as opposed to the company that almost makes me feel guilty for that."
[CLINT]
That's right. And that leads us to the fourth manager, which is really critical. We call them the mentor manager. They were high on standards, as much as they were equally high on their ability to connect. What this created was respect. Mentorship, here's something really interesting Tyler, in our research when an employee hated their job, they talked about the manager. When an employee loved their job, they talked about the mentor. Mentorship is not leadership. I will say that right now. The traditional view of leadership is you stand at the helm and you lead. You're the visionary.
Where are we going? How do we get you from point A to point B to point C? Where are we taking the ship? A manager is the person that's making sure there's no leaks on the ship, making sure that ship can move efficiently through the ocean. But the mentor, the mentor is the person who is taking care of the people on the ship. The mentor is the advocate, not just the developer. The mentor has to be chosen. That's what's important here. You might have that title as a leader or a supervisor, but you cannot become a mentor until the mentee invites you into their heart. That's why we're so powerful.
[TYLER]
Can you just say that all over again, because that is, if the listeners get nothing else out of this podcast, other than you're a great drummer and you have much better hair than I do, they should get that last comment.
[CLINT]
Yes, it mattered, man. It's what employees talk about. And if we can get employees to voluntarily want to be with somebody, to connect with somebody because of who they are, that mentorship piece is I think the most powerful and significant form of loyalty and engagement in the workplace. Mentorship versus management will always win. And it's honestly true, Tyler. If you look at it, if you look at any great story, a really good story, you have the hero of the story, you have the villain and then there's this battle of how do they get to where they want to go? But in every great story who shows up? Who eventually appears in that story?
[TYLER]
Yoda.
[CLINT]
Luke Skywalker had Obi wan Kenobi, Katniss had Haymitch, Frodo, I love Lord of the Rings, Frodo hat Gandalf, Landon had the Genie, Simba had Mufasa. Rocky had Mick. These great mentors that because of who they were, they connected the hero or the employee in this instance to their dreams. When I saw that, ---
[TYLER]
The Mr. Jensen's.
[CLINT]
The Mr. Jensen's, man, that was the most significant form of the influence.
[TYLER]
So how does a, okay, so I'm a controlling manager. All right. How do I move from a controlling manager to a mentoring manager? What do I have to do in that transformation process? If I'm recognizing there's a problem in my organization, how do I evolve?
[CLINT]
One thing again, too important to remember, you can't control anybody as a manager. Too many managers try to control people. You can only control yourself. You can only change what you do day to day. So the small deposits of trust may consistently over time create effective results. And it's the bank account theory. The more we make the deposits of connection, the more that we can withdraw. That allows us to become more of that mentorship relationship. However, there are five characteristics that we found. If anybody earned the title to become a mentor in someone's life, they had to possess these five characteristics. And I call them the five C's of mentorship. And we found these by simply interviewing 10,000 employees and when an employee would say, "I love it here," I would ask why. And that employee would say, "I work here because of Susie." Who's Susie? And then I'd go to the next employee. "Why do you stay here?" "I work here because of Susie."
Who is Susie? And when that would trend in an organization, we would find that in place, after place, after place, Susie had these five characteristics. Number one, confidence. Confidence mattered. Confidence was a mindset that when you had it, you exude trust. It's the mindset of, okay, you are confident in who you are as a leader, but you're also confident that you can get me to where I want to go. You can help me to become an advocate. Okay, if I want to move into management, you are on my side and you confidently know that if I do X, Y, and Z, I can get there. You're confident in that journey.
The second C is credibility. What's your background? What's your history. Okay, you're the car sales manager at the dealership. Have you ever sold a car before? I want to know that. I want to know what your background is, what your resume? Number three, competence. I want to mentor with a practitioner, not just a theorist. Now there are different forms of mentorship, but the finest form was when somebody was actually living and breathing the thing that they were teaching. Now, you might know everything about business management. Have you ever ran a company? Are you managing a company right now? Competence matters.
Number four was candor. The ability to have honest communication. They created relationships so strong Tyler, that honesty could exist. They created relationships where they, again, made the deposits of connection. They could have the withdrawals. They could make those candid conversations become alive because the person knew that they had their best interests at mind. And that leaves us with the last C and that is caring. The ability to just truly care. I care about you as a person, I care about your success. I'm not here to just make the numbers work and to drive a business. But I care about who you are inside and outside of work. Those five CS. That's what makes one change to a mentor.
[TYLER]
I'm going to make a statement and maybe it's just the world I live in, but I think this is what is so important. Nothing on that list blew my mind. However, we don't see it displayed everywhere with continuation thinking, oh, those are the five things that I need to do above anything else with equal holding. A lot of times we think, oh, I need to be competent and that means I'm going to be able to lead or mentor or manage. Now you got to have all the others. And part of it is just finding that blend. One of the things that I believe is I've evolved as a leader and as a mentor for others.
And you talk about it a lot, and I've got to read a quote from your book. You mentioned this from Oprah Winfrey, and to me, it is what it's all about. Leadership is about empathy. It's about having the ability to relate and connect with people for the purpose of inspiring and empowering their lives. How do you see the display of empathy show up in those five characteristics?
[CLINT]
Every employee that we ever interviewed out of the 10,000 plus, all of them, we were asking this of their manager, let me know when it gets to the part about me. Let me know. Let me know when your business agenda, let me know when the profit, P and L statement, let me know when that gets to the part about me. And some managers hear that and they go those entitled little shining stars. Let me know when it gets to, we get sick of hearing about that. But I would say it's not so much about entitlement as it is about good business. It's bringing humanity back into the workplace, giving people a reason to connect with you. And when you can empathize, when you have some relate-ability, when you get where they're coming from, when you have the ability to pause and to just listen and ask how people are feeling, ask what people need, ask what would look like a successful work environment to them, ask where they want to go, what are their dreams, that helps you to become more relatable.
That helps you get to the part about them. And when you do that, it allows you to have the conversations about getting to the part about you, about getting to the part about your business. But we have to start with them. I think as leaders, it's literally like we're standing in front of a fireplace and we're saying, "Give me heat." Then I'll give you what, we look at our people and say, give me heat, give me productivity, give me the results. Give me the effectiveness. Give me the growth. Then we'll talk about race. Then we'll talk about possibilities. Then we'll talk about time off. We got to flip that script, get to the part about them. And the quicker you do that, the stronger your loyalty will become.
[TYLER]
So let's go, I mean, golden information, and I'm excited to get more of that out of your book. I love it here, but I want to find out how this guy, Clint, who had someone speak belief into them at 10, becomes an accomplished drummer over a period of time, then got into this place of understanding these dichotomies in workplace. What did you experience a drummer and how did you see the ability to be part of a cohesive band and a performer and really a lot of the show as well. Just help me connect all the dots here because I know there's a connection. I just want to be able to see it all. So as a musician, as a drummer, nobody gives a grip about how fast I can play or how I can twirl my drumsticks. Nobody cares.
Drummers, like other musicians could care less. What they care about is the meaningful moments I create in the music. Can you groove? Can you jive? Can you keep time? Can you lay down the right feeling? Can you add to the group? Can you lift us? And I coached drum line for seven years at the Utah Valley University. A drum line consists of 17 to 20 drummers and they've all got a different part to play. You've got the snare drummers, the tenor drummers, the bass drummers. They're the guys that are like walking down the parade route going like, why did I join band? The drums are so heavy. They all have a different role to play. But when they come together and they play in a way, in a manner that we call cleanliness, it's a term that we use in music, man, that drum line was so clean. Oh, they're so clean.
It means that the music wasn't dirty, that every drummer was hitting the drum at the same time, at the same speed at the same height. And you get this sound that is, I can only explain it as heavenly. When you hear a drum line that has 100% cleanliness, you look at. Drum Corps International, Winter Guard International, those drummers play clean. And the same thing happens in an organization. When you have an organization that everybody is playing at the same temple, they're playing at the same rhythm, there's a synergy, there's a love, there's a community, there's a sense of man, we are thriving and we feel that and we're all moving in that same direction, it is so rare to find. But when you see it, it is powerful. It is moving.
And one of the things we do when we go and we speak with organizations and we present the research, what we will do is we actually create a drum line live in the room. Everybody's got drumsticks and buckets and we've got 3000 people in a ballroom rocking out. And we teach these principles, some of these dynamics that bring not just drum lines together, but bring organizations together. How do we listen better? How do we keep it simple? How do we communicate better? How do we keep the main thing, the main thing, how do we harmonize and create an organization that's moving in the same direction? And that all came from my music background, that all came from being a professional musician and learning how to take a good song and make it a hit song.
[TYLER]
I think what's cool for me there is you start to display ideas through not only kinesthetic action, but then also visual that people can see and it's way easier for them to replicate. So often, and if you're trying to speak to someone, if you're trying to coach someone, if you're trying to teach someone, you have to hit on many different levels. And it sounds like that's what you're able to do, which to me sounds like a lot of fun. Like, dude, if I'm going to do a presentation, I kind of want to bring in a drummer. Let's do this. This'll be fun and connected. So I love that and want to hear, as well from your heart and your passion, why is it that you feel like, as a generation, to u use that term, but I appreciate what you were saying as far as, "Hey, let's not pigeonhole people that way," which I totally get it. It isn't absolute, but as a generation in a timeframe, how can we better serve as mentors and leaders to make sure that we're connecting with people and what you've experienced in your personal journey through those instances?
[CLINT]
I would say three things, growth opportunity, recognition and time. The first one, if your people can't grow where they're at, they will go and grow somewhere else. Period. People need to have something to look forward to. People need to have something to dream about. People need something to chase and whether that's an intrinsic or an intrinsic motivator or an increase in pay or an opportunity for a job promotion, or maybe it's just growth in the development world. That's not a lot of companies that said we've got some employees that they're kind of tapped out, but we still grow them as individuals. We know that Susie and Sally are trying to get out of debt and we know that Mark and Brittany are trying to work on their marriage, whatever it is. So we provide marriage counseling. We provide a Dave Ramsey course so they can get financially out of debt. Whatever it is, they would grow people, because if people can't grow where they're at, they'll go and grow somewhere else. It's a natural part. It's a principle that is universal.
[TYLER]
I believe that corporations, organizations, communities should be incubators, not incinerators.
[CLINT]
I love that. I love that.
[TYLER]
And instead of, "Hey, we're going to burn you up when you're going to go, it's no, we'll incubate you in whatever way that you need to grow. And if you grow out of here, dude, we're better for it because it's all good."
[CLINT]
That's so good, Tyler, an incubator, not an incinerator. I love that.
[TYLER]
Use it. Some ball guy told me it's all good.
[CLINT]
Yes. That is amazing. I love that. And it's true. I mean, here's the thing. Some people are like, man, what if I invest in my people and they leave? Well, what if you don't invest in your people and they stay?
[TYLER]
Exactly.
[CLINT]
And my goal, always, like we worked with a large retail or excuse me, a fast food chain and my goal always to them was if I can help you get an employee to stay two years in your business versus two months, that's a win. That's a big win. Some of them are like college jobs. Or turnover is a big thing. It happens a lot. But again, let's incubate them, not incinerate them. I love that. That's so good. The next thing is recognition. Recognize people. Help them see that they're being seen. We found that there was five different ways that employees wanted to be recognized. Vocal praise was unfortunately the number one thing that people wanted the most. Vocal praise. And it's crazy because that costs the company $0, $0, like, "That boy, that girl, nice job what you did last month. Congratulations on the new sale. Keep up the good work." Like little things like that. Local praise.
Experiences was the next thing. Time off and flexibility was another thing that was important. Money. Anybody that says that employees don't care about money and they just want purpose, that's not true. If they can't pay their bills and they can't survive, money matters. A little increase in pay. Food was another thing that employees talked about. Taco Tuesdays, Chick-fil-A Friday, bringing food into the office. It was a great way to recognize people. The last one I'll talk about is trophies and awards. Think like Letterman's Jacket and a plaque, rookie of the year, you got the salesperson of the month, whatever that is. It's a great way to show people they are being seen.
[TYLER]
I don't know if you're a college football fan. I don't know if you're a Utah state, Utah valley state, I get it, Utah Valley University, but I mean, that's in the home of Utah state, Aggies and BYU. I'm a Buckeye. But I think what's funny is you talk about trophies, this evolution in the last, like five to seven years of turnover chains. And what's so funny is it's taken this way from college football to professional football and now I see organizations doing it. I see people really recognize, "Hey, you did something special. I'm going to give you this," because it not only works in sports. It works in organizations and something to rotate. And I've talked to others, you know Ryan Hawk talked about an organization. So I love that because it doesn't have to be over the top, but it's just something to, I think, go back to the first way you say, "Hey, I see you."
[CLINT]
Yes. And it's got meaning associated with. I always tell organizations, create the Emmy Award. What is the Emmy Award? What's the Oscar that you can give to individuals in your business and it has that kind of clout, that kind of meaning behind it. And all of those things, they need to be personalized. Don't go give Hamilton tickets to someone that just wanted a little bit of a race. Ask people. Bring them in and say, "You've just done so great, Johnny. We appreciate you. How can we recognize you?" Like literally I'm just having an honest, you could say money. Right now you can say, take me and my family on a cruise. Like, what would that be? How would you want to be recognized?
One company we worked with surveyed all of their people and said, "Listen, if we could give you one of five things, what would be the way that you want to be recognized?" And then they kept that in their employee profile. And that way, when something cool happened, they went right to that and said, "Oh, sweet, Sally ---
[TYLER]
My wife and I have, we've gone onto the practice of using Gary Chapman's love languages, because that kind of relates in a lot of ways. And I think it's a great way to, "Hey, I'm getting to know you. Help me get to know you so we can connect." And then I think the last one you had was quality time. Love to hear you kind of talk about that one.
[CLINT]
Good leaders for the most part, knew what they needed to do. The great leaders knew what they needed to stop doing. Employee spell mentorship, T I M E. They can't spell that well, but that's how they spell it time. And we try so hard to create connection and camaraderie and this feeling of synergy and unifying an organization. And we don't ever give them our time. You're too busy with emails. You're too busy running the ship. You're too busy figuring out what needs to happen tomorrow. And you have a lot of forgetful yesterdays.
We're really good at making the to-do lists. I found that some of the most significant leaders were really good at creating the to-don't lists. What are the things that you can stop doing that would allow you to connect more? And we sometimes associate productivity with success. Like if you're busy and you've got podcasts and emails and meetings after meetings, and you're meeting with this brand person, you're meeting with marketing and like, we associate success with being busy. But I think we need to sometimes reverse that. Because again, when it comes down to connection, which is key to creating a workplace where people can actually thrive and they feel seen, heard, and understand, all the things that we talked about, how do you expect to do that, when you're too busy boiling the ocean? What do we do? What do we do Tyler, when we wake up in the morning? Do you reach over and grab your phone and you start scrolling through everything you need to do. You check out what happened last night, you look at LinkedIn, what's going on on the emails, or do we turn over to the person next to us and tell them how much we love them? Marriage is grand, but divorce is about a hundred grand.
It's true, if you think about it and having employees in a business, it's a wonderful thing. It can be grand, but when employees leave, it's costing your organization thousands of dollars, thousands of dollars in employee turnover, the loss of morale, productivity, all the things that we lose when an employee leaves your business. So how do you expect to connect with them if you don't give them time?
[TYLER]
Love it. That's good stuff, dude. I've been able to get through a portion of the book. I can't wait to get through the rest of it. It releases April 12th, is that the day?
[CLINT]
April 13th.
[TYLER]
April 13th. So it was a day off. Maybe someone will get it April 12th, but April 13th, excited for it. Dude, this has been great. I've really enjoyed it. I thank you for the opportunity for you to share here. And as I've experienced, man, you've hit on a lot of great thing. Those are impacts that I've had in my life and I think man, you're going down the right rabbit hole in my opinion, as far as really how to serve people and how leaders can, as we evolve forward, serve people more.
[CLINT]
I appreciate it, Tyler. Thanks for having me on the show. It's been an honor, dude. It's fun to just connect and I appreciate the advocacy.
[TYLER]
In the time that this episode has been recorded, obviously Clint's book has released. He's done some amazing things. I really encourage you to get it. It really adds into this again, this whole conversation that we're having about generations, being this bridge, the conversations that Jason I had about, next week's guests Gabrielle Bosche, we're going to talk even more about millennials and generations. Here's why, because I believe right now today, the leaders that are able to bridge between races and different beliefs and religions and generations, those are the leaders that are really going to make an impact. It's something that is completely fallen on me, but it's also, I look at this great opportunity and how do we do that, man, we have to do it with others. Because unfortunately what we don't see is the barrier that restricts our bridge.
Our blind spots are what keep people that we connect with and to connect between those groups. So the more we can be exposed of our blind spots, the more we can discuss our blind spots, and that's how we get to be better leaders. And we don't fall into the plight that with some of the leaders that Clint got to know in his work that his organization has worked with to help identify where are their real down points? As Clint points out, and so many other people have said, people don't leave jobs. They leave leaders and that's something to take to heart and something for me, I want people that I'm around to say, "I love it here." It's my job to say, "How can I make that happen? How can I reduce those barriers? How can I make sure that I'm not the reason why they're leaving an organization?"
Thanks for being here. One thing, if you got value out of today's episode, go share it with somebody. If it's somebody that you work with, maybe somebody that you supervise or someone that is your supervisor. Someone in your life that you think could get value out of this episode, please share it with them. Share it with them. I would love nothing more for you than to give me a rating, give me a five-star rating. I'd love that. Give me a review. Let me know how I did, what value you're getting out of this. And as well, you're always welcome to join the Impact Driven Leader book club and round table where we sit around, we talk about these books, and we grow as leaders. We really grow as leaders and have great conversations about it. Until next time, have a great day.
