IDL37 Season 1: Non-verbal Communication in Leadership with Joe Navarro
How do leaders maintain social connectivity through their behavior? What is the connection between being exceptional and practicing empathy? Why should leaders always remember to treat people like people?
I am really excited to be interviewing Joe Navarro. He’s a former FBI agent who unpacks how you can apply non-verbal communication to leadership, both in how you carry yourself and how you interact with others.
Joe Navarro, M.A.
For 25 years, Joe Navarro served as an FBI agent specializing in counterintelligence and behavioral assessment. Since retiring, he has authored 14 books in 29 languages dealing with human behavior and body language.
His book “What Every BODY is Saying,” remains after a decade, the #1 selling body-language book in the world while “Louder Than Words,” based on his lectures at the Harvard Business School was hailed by The Wall Street Journalas “One of the six best business books to read for your career.”
Connect with Joe on Facebook, Twitter or LinkedIn. Email him at joenavarro@jnforensics.com
Read Joe’s bestselling books, check out the Body Language Academy and enroll in his Online Course.
IN THIS EPISODE WE DISCUSS:
What makes you exceptional?
The power of non-verbal communication
Treat people as people
What makes you exceptional?
Empathy is a key component to becoming a memorable and exceptional person. Some aspects of creating and maintaining empathy are:
Having an openness and receptive mind to what is happening around you in the world.
Be willing to be in the thick of it. Empathetic people are willing to experience life alongside those around them. They garner respect from their peers by not shying away from stepping into the thick of it to support their people.
Observing the needs, wants desires, and concerns of other people.
“A truly empathetic person can sense, feel, and understand that “this person is scared, this person is worried, this person is going through anxiety” and what as a leader … can I do?”
The power of non-verbal communication
Do not underestimate how much can be conveyed about a person through their body language. A leader can enter a room and people immediately know their stature of spirit and confidence.
Mostly, leaders communicate non-verbally with broad and smooth gestures.
“You realize what these individuals, these leaders, have in common is [that] their gestures are very smooth. They have smooth but broad gestures, and they can afford to do that because they have confidence in themselves, they don’t have to be jittery. ”
How a leader walks in a room will determine how people feel about that person:
Do they look at people, smile, and talk with them?
Are they standoffish and to the point?
Depending on how a leader carries themselves amongst their employees and their contemporaries can reveal a lot about their character, and people will make judgment calls on how good a leader they think this person is by their behavior.
Treat people as people
It is not possible to automate true human connection. Truly genuine and well-loved leaders make time for their people, above and beyond what is expected.
They do not come in to see their people simply because they were in the area. They build that time into their schedule to make sure that they get to see and interact with their people and employees face to face.
“ Leaders are going to have to provide that amplitude to be human and to adjust to the circumstances that are still with us, but what a great opportunity for leaders to really demonstrate how much they care. ”
Do not make the mistake of thinking that being empathetic means that you are a doormat. You can be empathetic and connect with people around you while being tough as nails.
Resources, books, and links mentioned in this episode:
To learn more, visit Joe’s website. Connect on Facebook, Twitter, or LinkedIn.
Read Joe’s bestselling books, check out the Body Language Academy and enroll in his Online Course.
Email Joe at joenavarro@jnforensics.com
BOOK | Joe Navarro – What Every BODY is Saying
BOOK | Joe Navarro – Be Exceptional: Master the Five Traits That Set Extraordinary People Apart
BOOK | James C. Collins – Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap... and Others Don't
The Impact Driven Leader YouTube Channel
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Emai Tyler: tyler@tylerdickerhoof.com
About the Impact Driven Leader Podcast
The Impact Driven Leader Podcast, hosted by Tyler Dickerhoof, is for Xillennial leaders who have felt alone and ill-equipped to lead in today's world. Through inspiring interviews with authors from around the world, Tyler uncovers how unique leadership strengths can empower others to achieve so much more, with real impact.
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If you’re average you’re going to get a paycheck, but if you’re exceptional you’re going to have influence
Joe Navarro
Podcast Transcription
[TYLER DICKERHOOF]
As you know, as you've heard, part of this podcast is also doing the Impact Driven Leader round table. I want you to listen to this quick message, this is an invitation. I want you to come sit at our table. You're going to learn, you're going to grow and you can't help, but have a great time with us. And I invite you. You're listening. There's a seat for you with your name on it. Come join us.
[MOLLY SLOAN]
Hey, this is Molly Sloan. The Impact Driven Leader book club and round table have been transformational for me. I've been involved for the past six months and it's taken me on a journey to be a better leader and a better person at work, at home, and really in every interaction with people. Tyler's done a great job of guiding us through the books. They're current, thought-provoking and they apply to all of us. The weekly round table has become an accountability team. I've done lots of leadership trainings in the past where you feel on top of the world, the week after the event, but ultimately it wears off over time. This group is better. We're on a leadership journey with each other through frequent, ongoing discussions and continual growth. I strongly recommend this group to anyone aiming to continually develop as a leader.
[TYLER]
Welcome back to the Impact Driven Leader podcast. This is your host, Tyler Dickerhoof, so glad you're joining in today. If you're new to the podcast, welcome. If you've been listening for a while, appreciate you being here. Surely do. Thank you to everyone who has subscribed, who has rated and reviewed the podcast. I really appreciate those that rate and review because I want to get better and that's how I can get better. I love reading those and thank you guys for that. Also, thank you to those that reach out. Tell me about an episode, tell me what you loved and what you gathered from it, what you learned, what you listened to it. I love, those things. Best way to do that is wherever you're listening rate, review right there. Let me know how you're doing because that helps other people find these great conversations.
Today I'm so excited to share this conversation with Joe Navarro. Joe is a former FBI agent. He really took his experience there and kind of developing into kind of nonverbal communication, behavioral stuff that we do and applying it to leadership. And in one of his books, What Every Body is Saying is, after a decade, it's a number one selling book. He's written 29 books in general. We had a great conversation. I love getting into this about the ideas of how we carry ourselves, how it shows up in a leadership role. So enjoy this episode. You're going to get a lot of great information. Really loved his latest book as well. We're going to talk about that. Enjoy it. I'll catch you at the end.
Joe, thank you for joining me, and as excited to chat with you and as I've gone through your book and learned a little bit about you, I love hearing the stories and books. I think to me, that's what makes books impactful and as we were just chatting here, this is the line that to me, because you said it many times, and to me as a leader, it's the quality that I think is most imperative. So I'm going to say this, in my opinion, being exceptional, so your book be exceptional, being exceptional is really about being empathetic.
[JOE NAVARRO]
I think you nailed it. I think you nailed it squarely on the head. If you ask people, do you want to be average? Nobody wants to be average. No hands go up unless the guy was asleep and suddenly he's woken up. But if you ask who wants to be exceptional, everybody raises their hand, but then comes the next question. Well, how do you do that? How do you do that, because if you're telling me that you're going to work harder, or you're going to spend more time away from home, or you're going to do what, and you nailed it on the head, is this concept of empathy, of being outward rather than inward, of leaving things better than they were. That is really hard for a lot of people.
I know you've come across a lot of Navy Seals. These are really special folks. When you talk to them, they're very humble. Most of the time they walk around you, you wouldn't even know they're Navy Seals, unless, in my neighborhood, you notice that their legs are not like your legs. But the philosophy of leaving things better of making those key sacrifices for a greater purpose as the Navy Seals say, it's not for everybody. I often say in America, this is a great country. If you're average, you're going to get a paycheck, but if you're exceptional, you're going to have influence. And very few people rise to that level. And I think in part it's because they're not taught what those things are that will make you exceptional, because if it's a car, yes, you could have a dozen cars and maybe they'll disappear the next day. We don't really teach this, how to go that one step further.
[TYLER]
So let's tie that back into it, I'd love to, as I made the comment and you backed it up, because, and this to me is the greatest opportunity in leadership today. And especially generationally is understanding what true empathy is. I think that's a challenge because it's hard to really, I think in some ways understand, defined, and as you did a great job of kind of sharing your story, I want to ask this question, what do you feel as I just stated that is the barrier from people being empathetic? If being exceptional is about being empathetic, and that is the greatest key in leadership, what do you think holds people back? What's that part of them that holds them back from being empathetic?
[JOE]
That's a fantastic question. No one else has asked me that, and I'm glad you have. I think in part it's not a simple answer because in part, sometimes it has to do with how rigid we are, how closed off we are. I love it when I'm at a foreign hotel and I hear somebody from the United States and they've traveled for the first time and they say, "Oh, wow, this is pretty neat." Or, "Look, this is really cool." It's like, what did you expect? And their eyes are open. Nothing opens your eyes like travel, nothing creates more empathy than travel, of being proximal. So one of them is having that open mind, that receptiveness. Two is, and I see this with great leaders, whether you go back to World War II and you saw Eisenhower mingling with the troops right before D-Day or or Alexander The Great I talk about in the book going out before a battle, and just what we would say today, just hanging out with the boys. Today would be hanging out with the boys and those fearsome women and getting a feel for are they up to the challenge and so forth?
And I think to be empathetic, you have to be in the thick of it. If you are a thousand miles away, 500 feet away, 20 feet away with a closed door, you're not going to achieve it. You have to be present. You have to feel it, smell it, touch it, and experience it. And I run into some people that think there need to be these divisions where, well, I'm not going to go down there. What? Me stand in the loading dock and see what that's like? And yet, as one example from this very senior guy in New York, he was taking me about in his building, and he says, I found out more about shipping problems from the people in the loading dock than all my executives. They can tell you who's ticketing, who's taking their time, who comes in late, who's having problems, all this stuff, and you cannot possibly empathize.
I think you could argue, it's you cannot empathize if you are not there. I think you can have sympathy. I think you can have understanding, but until, you know, I remember being at a crime scene, it was about 118 degrees in Yuma, Arizona and I used to go through a set of tires on my bureau car every month. It was, well, we bought cheap tires. They would just explode. But until you've been at at a crime scene like that, you don't understand the life, what these people went through. You really don't understand. How do you testify in court if you can't present that total picture of living in poverty, alcohol abuse on and on and on? So I think you have to have that open mind. I think you have to have proximity.
But as one of the key things I talk about in the book of, Be Exceptional is you have to be able to observe the needs, the wants, the desires, but more importantly, the fears and concerns of others. A truly empathetic person can sense and feel and understand this person is scared, this person is worried, this person is going through anxiety and what as a leader can I do? One of the things that they don't teach in business school, and I've been to all of them, I've been to all, here and in Europe and the one thing I see over and over, and I asked the instructors, "Where's the section on the amelioration of fear?" They look at me like, "What?" That's one of the jobs of a leader, to get rid of obstacles and get rid of anything that would cause fear, because as you know fear can damage you, fear can leave you trapped.
People don't even go out of their house if they live in fear, and yet that is one of the responsibilities of a leader. We often taught, well, they have to have a mission and a goal, and this and that, really, what about the fear, that apprehension that we all have that this could not work, or maybe this will get in the way or that? A leader's responsibility is to assess for fear and to diminish that fear, and yet look at how many people fail to do that today. In fact, there are people now that dedicate themselves to just artificially create fear, because it can make the money, it gathers people around them, but it accomplishes nothing.
[TYLER]
It's very short. It's very short-lived, right?
[JOE]
Exactly.
[TYLER]
It's kind of like the firecracker burns from fast and hot, but it doesn't sustain. So it's not going to create this warming fire over time. It's just going to be something quick. And it brings with all those different types of metaphors and similes that you could go into.
[JOE]
Great leaders that I've known, they sense when, you know our SWAT team we were outnumbered. I remember one time we had to go into, this is the only, it's not in the book, but it's the only time that our SWAT team had to go into a small city, a town in Puerto Rico. And it's the only time that we have had to evacuate from there, with helicopter, standing by ambulances, standing by and walking backwards out. That's how dangerous it was. And I remember our SWAT team commander at the time, Larry and the whole way out he's checking on us, "Are you okay? Are you okay? Maintain that calm." That's the job of a leader, to attenuate fear and apprehension. Why? Because we function better.
[TYLER]
I love it. This is one of the things that I picked up. And again, Be Exceptional is your book. You've read a ton of books and a lot of great information, but yet to me to see the desire that you've had to take this interest in human I don't want to say human function, but human function in the sense of nonverbal communication. That's a functionality. And to me, the cool piece that I saw is when you immigrated to the United States, and you're a little boy, and you didn't know any language, and you got thrust in this situation. To me, that's when you started to learn that you had to look at all these nonverbal cues in order to understand your surroundings. To me, that's where the seed was placed, in my opinion. Do you feel like that was the case?
[JOE]
I think you're exactly right. I think, well, interestingly enough we came here as refugees thinking that we would only be here a few months. We came from Cuba and I only spoke Spanish. So we thought, okay, there's a revolution in Cuba. It'll be over soon and we'll go back. But as a child, you have to rely on something. And the only thing that I found comfort in, and I think you nailed it is wow, the body language, it's the same. When Tyler smiles at me, I know what that means. I know when Tyler looks away, I know what that means. So it was something that as a child, you know my parents were both working two jobs as waiters in Miami beach, they weren't around. So I had to latch on to something that gave meaning.
So I became very sensitive to that. I think my mother would tell you, all the way down to when I was eight and nine years old, I always paid attention to the body language more than what people were saying, because inherently I found it more honest. And I think you've seen it in relationships when you walk into a group and you see the person that eagerly seeks you out and says, hello, the person that just is overwhelmingly happy to see you versus the person that just kind of looks over and does one of these things. And I think universally, we put more reliance now on words when really it's about the non-verbals. I think the best relationships are based on nonverbals. When you see leaders, when I see Colin Powell take a stage and he has his command presence and he hasn't spoken yet, and you realize this is all about non-verbals that you can have people really influenced just by your demeanor, by your kindness, by again, your empathy. These are powerful tools, powerful.
[TYLER]
Its funny as you say that about Colin. I've never met him and I of course admire the guy, but as you're talking about that, I think about, all right, how does he stand? Very composed, not over-powering, he will accept what's there. I'm just thinking of the times that I've him in his body language without ever saying a word. And you're right, that, it gives this presence of, hey, if there's someone I want to lead me, it's him. He's composed and his demeanor shows that I'm not going to try to overpower you. I'm here to be a rock almost, and we're going to get through this together. That's what I feel based upon how he presents himself.
[JOE]
Exactly. You know, when I look at Colin Powel, and I've presented at events where he has been at, or I look at somebody like Mary Erdos of JP Morgan, and you realize what these individuals, these leaders have in common is their gestures are very smooth. They have smooth, but broad gestures, and they can afford to do that because they have confidence in themselves. They don't have to be jittery. You know, one of the things that I've often used for teaching is I have two photographs of two individuals, and they're both in military fatigue, uniforms. And the only difference with, I don't show the face, the only thing is different is one has the little badge of the insignia of a corporal and the other one has the insignia of a general. And I said, how many of you would be able to notice them if it was just based on their behavior and their behavior is totally different? It's totally different. Those little insignia aren't significant. When a general walks into a room, you sense it. When a corporate walks into a room, you sense it. Why? Because their nonverbal communication is different.
[TYLER]
Well, at the same point in this discussion, I think if there's a case and talk about if there's a general, the walks in the room that you're like, I'm with that guy, as opposed to a general the walks into the room, it's like, I'm not sure about that guy. It's based upon how they walk in. It's how they present themselves. And that's in any border. It's not necessarily the military. It's anywhere. It's like how that leader walks in, as you described earlier, are they walking in, looking at people or are they so the brow furrowed, and they're just direct to the point, it's like, I'm not sure I want to follow that guy, because is he worried about himself or me?
[JOE]
Yes. I think you have a point. Most of my business is in the financial sector and their concerns and their genuine concerns are customers, keeping customers, taking care of customers, their clients, making sure that everything from their curbside appeal to their personal appeal is the best that it can be. And you're right, the leader that comes in and engages each and every person, maybe they can't talk to everybody because there's too many, but boy, they sure make that eye contact and they acknowledge each other and they turn yield and do all these things that when you walk away from that meeting, you say, I want to attend the next meeting. And yet I've been led by people who it's like, I hope I never have to come to this meeting, another meeting with this clown again, because their mind is on themselves. They could care less about what you're going through.
But we go back to that first thing you said. It's about empathy. And really in many ways, that's what the book is about. You can only create psychological comfort through empathy. Empathy is you have to be able to observe what is going on in the room. And I think that's why I dedicated so many years to studying non-verbals and most of my books are on that subject; is if you can't tell your son or your daughter is having issues when they walk through that door or you can't tell that something's going on in this meeting, that I sense something isn't right, then you're not properly observing because it's often just there for you to pick up on.
[TYLER]
Well, that chapter in the book to me was very, I think it's powerful in the sense that, I know as we're discussing this empathy, which I think is so hard to define in our world. We're not sure, but this idea that I can learn those skills. You shared multiple times in the book about how, as a young agent, as a fresh in the bureau that you had to learn how to understand who was a threat, who wasn't, how did they carry themselves so on and so on? And that was a skill you developed, no different than how you handle a weapon and everything else. And I think to me, that's, what's really, I think important to know, as a leader; is once you have a person, like you had agent moody, or those of us have, our spouses, whoever it may be that says, "Hey you don't realize the impact you're having on people because of how you're showing your body language?" And for those of you, when you read the book, you can talk about agent Moody Joe, but I think that's important that we understand, hey, you can learn and develop this stuff. It is a God-given talent. You either have it or don't. You can learn and develop it.
[JOE]
Yes. Thank you for pointing that out. The assumption that somehow this is sprinkled in on you and you're born that way is such a fallacy. I do think that some children from a young age begin to realize that they have a role. And I think they realize it. I've seen it with children. I saw it today at the YMCA where a young boy took it upon himself to help the other children who didn't have goggles. And I was astonished. I said, he's doing something no other adult even thought, of scrounging around to help his mate. He's probably 11 years old, he's already showing leadership. But the traits that, for instance you need for the job of law enforcement where the public, all of us, you know the first crime scene I went to was a bank robbery in Phoenix, Arizona.
You get there, I was 24 years old, I walk in the door and there were four tellers I believe and two managers, and they're looking at you like, well, you're our salvation. I was like, God, help us all. I was only 24. But you realize they're expecting you to remain cool, calm, and collected, to take charge, to seize the crime scene, to make sure that everybody's separated, to calm them down and explain to them physiologically what they're going through and all that stuff. And as almost every athlete, an elite athlete learns is you become a role model by looking at those traits that best serve you and others to be that role model that you have to carry yourself in a certain way.
A lot of the coaching that I do, which is one-on-one with executives involves this, that all of a sudden they've accomplished a lot very quickly, but they don't know, they haven't had those, you know, in the old days you went to General Electric as a 20 year old and 15 years later now you became an executive and you were mentored. Now we have to create our own mentorship program so that we can begin to use those behaviors. And it's all about behaviors, behaviors that you can learn so that you can be more patient, so that you can engage people, so that you can communicate with them. And again when we go from being average to exceptional is what does that take, that need to communicate more effectively, to be able to observe more effectively, and then to be able to act more effectively, those things they're just not showered on us.
We have to go out and learn how to do it so that we can then measure what is our effect on others, because in the end, and this Tyler, as Carl Sagan said, all we are is the sum total of our influence on others. That's all. That's the only thing that matters. And until we begin to shape that and mold that we're not at that exceptional level, but as we get closer to that, you begin to see the influence that we have. And influence isn't about walking around with your chest held high and your chin high. It's about the gratitude that people have for being in their lives and how many people can achieve that.
[TYLER]
Yes. Well, I mean, it's what Jim Collins writes about in good to great. It's that that level five leader and that person that does have that tremendous trust and influence and thereby legacy impact. And I think the great lesson that I've had to learn, I've had to learn empathy. For me, I think it comes back and I think back about your experiences as you share that there's, everyone has a catalyst point to where, oh, this is how, in my mind, this is going to be the shortest route to get it done. But oftentimes we find going back to that firecracker, it's like, that's only short term, and we don't learn that, "Hey, that may get it done today," but is it going to get it done tomorrow and the day after, and the day after that. To me, that's that great executive learning cycle to say, "Hey, you got here, great, but guess what, what got you here won't get you there. And let me start to clue you in, if you're going to lead people, man, you need to build rapport with them. You got to connect with them. You got to show that you care about them if you ever want to achieve anything, because if you don't treat them as people, you're not going to be a leader"
[JOE]
Yes, you're exactly right. In the book I write about this wonderful man and his wife Georgia Logothetis in New York. Over the years, he has struggled with issues and travel is difficult for him. But every year he makes it out to every office around the world. And I go, "George, why don't you just jump on a Zoom call?" He just shakes his head and his wife says, "Joe, you know my husband 20 plus years. Haven't you learned anything? He wants to be in the same room. He wants to look at them. He wants to hear the stories. He wants to share the coffee. He's not there to look at the books. He can look at the books on his computer. He's there to influence them by his presence." And he builds that into the equation.
How many people build that into the equation? For most people, it's an accident. "Oh, I was here. So I stopped by to say hello." But that's really what makes for an exceptional individual. When I look at the Jane Goodall ,and how she changed our perception of everything, just by how she looked on our nearest cousins apes and said, "Look at them as something to be valued, not to be shot, not to be captured, how we look at things, how we engage with them and then turning to a public, which was reticent to accept her philosophy and begin through her own non-verbals, how she engages; she has persuaded millions around the world to be more empathetic to the animals around us. She did that one little level at a time. She didn't set out to make this quantum change, but those incremental behaviors, how she looked at the animals, how she talked about them, her refusal, for instance, to number the animals as scientists had done, but to actually give them names, began to change our perceptions and how she tells the story. All of her stories are stories of empathy. Find one book that she has written where it isn't a story of empathy. You can't find it. They're all about empathetic understanding.
[TYLER]
Well, I mean, I think the great opportunity and especially as we've gone through the pandemic exposure and how that's changed human interaction, and people are yearning to get back into interaction, but as companies and businesses understand, "Hey, how are we going to operate?" I think there's great opportunity, it's I've learned a lesson as others are learning a lesson, the soft skills, the people skills, being able to read nonverbal cues, those are the things that are going to set great leaders and businesses apart over the next generation, because we've either missed that opportunity or we have people that have done more online. We have done more away from each other. We're not touching people. We're thinking, "Hey how can we automate that?" And I believe this, and I hear this from you is there's a tremendous level of connection that you surely can't automate.
[JOE]
You sure you nailed it again. You surely cannot automate it nor can you delegate it. COVID taught us many things. Number one, it taught us all of a sudden, I'm hearing from executives, I mean, from Beijing to South Africa, to everywhere, they're writing to me and saying, "I can't read people. All I can see is their face, and I end up, some of the faces of people in the office are covered." Oh, all of a sudden body language is now important. The second thing we learned is how resilient we are as humans and how quickly we can adapt. I used to maybe make one Skype, two Skype calls a month and now we went to 80% Zoom calls overnight. But we also learn the efficacy of it and that is that there's a lot to be shared by being able to see each other, to engage each other, that warm smile that greets us, those arching eyebrows that get excited as we get excited about a topic and so forth. That communicates a lot.
Going forward, you're right, also, this is an opportunity for leaders and the opportunity is in this, how are you going to handle it when part of the workforce is somewhat hesitant about going back into the workplace that you, as a leader, as I said, one of the things that a leader does is attenuates fear, that you have to create an empathetic environment where those that are still concerned about their health are respected. And those that think everything is back to normal they also have to be respected, but you also have to give guidance. You also have to realize that people are going to be standing further away from each other. My company's already observed this. We've done multiple studies now, where, when people have gone back to work, they don't realize it, but there's tending about eight to 11 inches further than they were before.
And this is just a natural phenomena that humans are not faucets, that we will be coming back into the workplace and we have to give. Leaders have to give workers, their compatriots, they have to give them the opportunity to vent because they're angry, they're upset, there's a lot of depression. As in my own life we've lost people. In my own neighborhood I know of three losses and this is significant and people will need to get this out of their system as we get back to that more focus work. So leaders are going to have to provide that amplitude to be human and to adjust to the circumstances that are still with us, but what a great opportunity for leaders to really demonstrate how much they care. I have to go back probably maybe 70, 80 years to a time where leaders had this opportunity to really demonstrate this level of caring. So I think it's a great opportunity.
[TYLER]
Yes. I mean, it's something that I see as leadership. It's a great learning lesson and it's going to be a divider. And to me, and I want to share this with you, and I want to get your take on it. As we've talked about this empathy, we've talked about being exceptional, we've talked about maybe what are those barriers? This is my belief and this has been my experience. The thing that held me back from being more empathetic was my insecurities about where did I fit? How did I fit? What value did I bring in? So to me, I believe that's the greatest barrier and I'd love for you to think about it, even think about it now you get back to me later, but think about it to me, that's the biggest thing. If we can come to grips with our insecurity, we all have it. I have it. You have it. Everyone listening has an insecurity. Go ahead.
[JOE]
No, I think that's a profound statement and it bears examination because we all have insecurities. I remember as a young agent, I had insecurities and what we have to surmount to be empathetic when we feel frail. Because when we're insecure, we're frail. We're not as we now say together. So I think it's difficult to be empathetic and yet at the same time, how many times have I learned that I can strengthen myself by going beyond myself and taking care of others?
[TYLER]
By displaying vulnerability. Is when you're vulnerable enough to embrace that insecurity, say, "Hey it is what it is. I'm going to ..." And to me I'd love if maybe another conversation over something in Florida where we sit down and enjoy and say, "Hey what body cues, hey, I'm fighting over insecurity," and that, I recognize that like, oh, now I feel secure in this conversation, this relationship, this interaction with us. I understand you have some hesitation and maybe I have hesitation, but now all of a sudden we've opened each other up. That vulnerability means now all of a sudden we are compatriots. We're going to go forward in this. Because to me, there's probably a lot in that and it's that we're going to taking off that armor and allowing for that insecurity say, "Hey, I admit it. Yes, it's there, I've accepted it. Now that vulnerability is going to allow us to go even farther."
[JOE]
You're exactly right. I was in Manchester, England right before COVI, two weeks before they shut everything down. And I've given thousands of talks and I'm just getting ready to get on stage and the gentleman hands me a little cup of water, and I noticed my hand is shaking. And then they call me and I'm walking out on this stage. There's 400 or 500 people there and I just said it. I said, folks, I don't know why, but I'm nervous and I shouldn't be. And people say, "Oh, you never. You never tell the public you're nervous." "Sorry, mate, but I'm nervous and I don't know why." After the event was over, you're only on for 15 minutes and we had a book signing and I had people come up to me and say, "I'm asked to give speeches and I always get nervous and you made me happy to know that somebody experienced like you gets nervous."
I said, "I get nervous all the time." There was something about opening up, that showing the humanity of it that I think was very rewarding. And at the same time, I think it builds us up too, and saying, I'm human. I have sentiments. And the old, and I understand it, in law enforcement, you have to have this with veneer because things can happen and then they can turn bad really fast, but I've never hesitated to show my emotions. I have cried at crime scenes, even in court and I just front it. It is what it is. I've done heroic things but do they measure as much as that openness? I don't think so. I think just being open and letting younger agents see that, "Hey, it's okay to cry." I think that has greater merit than anything else that that I've done.
[TYLER]
Well, I think emotions are part of our non-verbal. How we display that, we can't hide that. And to me, as we come back to this this whole display of empathy, to me, it's a spectrum. I've talked about this on my podcast before. It's at one end your heart and callous, the other end, you're a doormat. To me, it's somewhere in the middle that's healthy. To me, those emotions are what allow people to come together and it is that being, because empathetic to me can't be one way. It is if I'm trying to connect with you and I'm Joe, ask me about you and tell me about you am learning and I'm caring. We're going through those things. If I hadn't learned about you and you're the whole time stiff, all this conversation wouldn't be valuable. It's not a one way, but it's all of a sudden if I start to open up and I start to smile and do all those non-verbals that you've identified, as you saw when you were interrogating, people or going through, it's like the more that you cared about them, the more they just opened up and they wanted to go with you, right?
[JOE]
Oh, it's absolutely true. I was interviewing, well, I write about it in the book. Let me just say this, because I think you hit on an important point. Being empathetic doesn't mean you're somebody's true toy. It doesn't mean people walk all over you. Not at all. You can be empathetic and be hard as nails. And what I mean by hard as nails is that you're not going to violate the law. You're not going to violate morals and you're certainly not going to violate ethics because the violation of ethics is the antipathy of being empathetic. Especially in my role where I'm sitting there, in the book, I talk about this criminal, really a despicable man, because he was a pedophile. And my job is to get information, not to act off, not to make him feel bad. The judge will do that. My job is to get information because there's a lot more victims. And my empathy for him is not because of his crimes. My empathy for him is in that he is a human being and I'm going to treat him with respect.
And that's it. And when you can do that, and I've done this with some of the worst people, and I've had them come back and say, "I talk to you because you're the first person to treat me with respect. You're the first person in a law enforcement that hasn't called me a maggot, a tramp, or this or that." And it's like, and you're telling me that that's the key. Just being an empath, just being a nice person, just being respectful is all it takes. And in a way that's exactly what it takes, that I'm not going to bend the rules. I'm certainly not going to cheat the justice system, but I will grant whatever I am entitled to grant under the auspices of being empathetic that if a person needs water, if he needs medical treatment, if he needs to get something off their chest, that I'm going to provide that. And I think there's a misunderstanding about what empathy is, that somehow you have to put your life on hold and acquiesce to others. And that is not empathy.
[TYLER]
Yes, well, I agree. And again, so much great value that I've learned out of your book and can't wait to digest even more. So, Joe, thank you so much for joining me today. I've gotten tremendous value out of it and I truly hope to be able to call you a friend and say, "Hey, would love to have more of these discussions," because again, you've dug a hole here to where I'm very interested in my own experiences, but I believe from a leadership perspective, it's our great opportunity.
[JOE]
Absolutely. Of course we're friends. I make friends for life. I don't make friends for 15 minutes. Just think about the things that you do every day, where you give opportunities. The way that you ask questions, the enthusiasm with which you do it, how you turn yield in our conversations. Many of these things are non-verbals, but they register, they register with your guests, they register with your audiences. And that's what sets us apart. That's when we begin to see, ah, those are the exceptional traits. Exceptional traits don't cost money, but they cost effort. And that's the big difference. So I congratulate you.
[TYLER]
Well, thank you, Joe. That's a great little note to end on. I love that and hope everyone, if you didn't catch that, rewind it back 15, 30 seconds and make sure you write that one down. Joe, thank you for your time. Thank you for your contribution and just being you and really diving into this stuff that really intrigues you because we're all better off for it.
[JOE]
Thank you very much.
[TYLER]
I look back over the notes that I took from my conversation with Joe. I really love this idea of what are, being exceptional, practicing empathy. As he talked about being empathetic does not mean you're someone's chew toy. It really doesn't. And my definition of healthy empathy is not being callous and hard. It's not being a doormat, ties into what Joe said. Again, this is unedited. I want you guys to appreciate and understand this is me from the heart, from real, one take every single time. And I share that because our conversations that I have with these authors and guests are meant to add value to your life, to understand that it isn't produced in such a way to create this perfect anything. It's a conversation because I believe that's how people really engage and learn, is through conversations.
Each month, as part of the Impact Driven Leader round table, actually each week we do a Zoom where we go through either guests, we go through the books that we're reading that month, where we learn and grow together. I want to invite you to that. Join in for the rest of 2021. There's going to be exciting, great opportunities coming in 2022. So make sure you sign up for that. Get the email that I send out each week, which shares more information about one, the podcast guests, but as well, other things that I have to offer. So you can go sign up for that at tylerdickerhoof.com or wherever you see the show notes.
So thank you for listening in. Truly appreciate it. Thank you for everyone that shares this with others. My mission and desire is to help other leaders get healthy too. Part of that is having conversations and growing together. So I hope this episode you can take and it can spur conversations with others. That's why I'm here to do it. I love these conversations I have, and I hope you're having great conversations too. Until next time. Thanks for being here.
