IDL68 Season 2: Break the Limits, with Meg Epstein
Do you trust your team to do the work? How do you come back from challenges? What is the experience of a woman working in a currently male-dominated industry?
Meg Epstein is driven to support and inspire other women. She is the founder of CA South, a commercial development company with over a billion dollars under its management. Meg came into commercial development as a young woman, just out of college, and she wanted to do more than work in a bank. Today, she shares the story of how she got started in development. She and Tyler also reflect on their experiences growing up on farms and the life lessons they learned being around agriculture.
Real estate developer Meg Epstein has over a decade of experience creating efficient, modern lifestyles for people where it matters most: their homes and neighborhoods.
Developing and establishing spaces that support whole living and simplifying home and work life for individuals is a personal passion of hers.
To that end, Meg founded CA South in 2016 with the idea of bringing to Nashville her sense of design and style.
As CA South raised its first dedicated fund in early 2019, the firm expanded beyond residential condos to include multifamily mixed-use, industrial and office projects, as well as opportunity zone funds.
Over the course of her career, she’s been involved in the development and construction of over 1 million square feet of residential and commercial real estate, representing over $1Billion to date.
Meg is also a proud Board Member of the Nashville Civic Design Center.
Visit Meg Epstein’s website and see also CA South. Connect with her on Instagram, and LinkedIn.
IN THIS EPISODE WE DISCUSS:
Lead, don’t micromanage (14:30)
A woman in business (21:25)
Hone in on the niche (31:48)
Lead, don’t micromanage
Avoid micromanaging your team and encourage autonomy. Everyone will have a different way of doing something. If you hire someone to achieve a goal to support the company, let them figure out the process that best suits them and their system instead of forcing them to use your own.
Hire people that fit into the company’s culture, that align with your values, and then trust them to get the job done.
A woman in business
People may assume your role or your limits, but they are in the wrong. Do not let that stop you from pursuing what it is that you desire and want to achieve.
Some things in life only affect you if you let them.
Be clear on your goals, and seek out the people who resonate with you and who will support you in pursuing your ambitions and desires for running a successful company, because it is possible.
Hone in on the niche
Find your niche, because there are pockets of them distributed within your industry. There are so many ways that you can help people, even if you do not know yet where to start or what to do.
So, look at the data. What are the numbers telling you, and how can you make a positive impact?
Resources, books, and links mentioned in this episode:
Visit Meg Epstein’s website and see also CA South. Connect with her on Instagram, and LinkedIn.
Find out more about the CCIM Institute
Join the Impact Driven Leader Community
Check out the Impact Driven Leader Youtube Channel
Connect with Tyler on Instagram and LinkedIn
Email Tyler at tyler@tylerdickerhoof.com and sign up for the next Impact Driven Leader Round Table Cohort
About the Impact Driven Leader Podcast
The Impact Driven Leader Podcast, hosted by Tyler Dickerhoof, is for Xillennial leaders who have felt alone and ill-equipped to lead in today's world. Through inspiring interviews with authors from around the world, Tyler uncovers how unique leadership strengths can empower others to achieve so much more, with real impact.
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From a leadership point of view, [there] is a maturity to stepping back and saying, “Hey, that’s not my strength”.
Tyler Dickerhoof
Podcast Transcription
[TYLER DICKERHOOF]
Welcome back to the Impact Driven Leader podcast, your host, Tyler Dickerhoof, glad you're listening in today. Or if you're watching on YouTube, glad to have you. I'm excited today to share with you the conversation I had with Meg Epstein. Meg is the founder of CA South. They are a commercial development company located in Nashville. They work in the Southeast, they have over a billion dollars in assets, under management. Let me get that out of me, there's only one take in these, just to let you know if you're listening in, I just do this one take, but I'm excited for you to hear this conversation.
One of the things that me and I dive into is Meg came into commercial development this young, just out of college, she had a finance degree, but yet she wanted to do something more. She didn't want to go sit in a bank and that led her into development. She shares the stories, how she got started. Then we also take a little jot into, I guess my personal passion. She grew up on a pair of orchard so we talk about the values, the lessons learned being around agriculture and some of those skill sets that transcend into modern leadership and, or looking for individuals when you're hiring that have a certain ability to them that really make the organization run better. I'm excited for you to listen to this episode. As always, if you get value out of this, share it with someone, I'd appreciate it. I'd love it if you also get value out of this. Send me a message. I'd love to hear, I'd love to be able to pass along anything to Meg. It's exciting to talk to a female entrepreneur that really is aiming to inspire other female leaders as she leads a pretty large organization now.
[TYLER]
They do a lot of commercial development in and around Nashville. So I'm excited for you to hear this conversation with Meg Epstein. All right, Meg. Good morning. Welcome.
[MEG EPSTEIN]
Thank you.
[TYLER]
Glad you for joining me. Excited to be able to hear to chat with you to really have this conversation about leadership. We talked a little bit about before we hit record what inspires you and what you choose to inspire others, especially as a commercial property developer now with CA South, the firm that you founded. So we'd love to just kick off and start there, what is Meg doing today? Then we'll go back in the past and then we'll jump to the future.
[MEG]
Sure. So currently I run a real estate development and investment management company in Nashville. That means we build ground up industrial and multi-family buildings and within, as well as yes, logistics, industrial, but we also manage two private equity funds to invest into the deals. So it's been a long journey getting here, but I have an amazing team and Nashville's been an incredible place to start this journey.
[TYLER]
I mentioned earlier a few of the spots that I love in Nashville, I'd only been to Nashville, I think for the first time, five years ago and I absolutely love the area, my wife and I actually thought about moving there a handful of years ago, but we pretty enjoy where we're at. But Nashville is a city that I just love, it's vibrancy, it's energy. I think what I've seen a little bit is there's almost this evolution of, we'll say our age, I'm a 42, I'm guessing you're somewhere in your thirties and there's this like drive to move to Nashville because it's such a vibrant city. It's so endearing and values based, but yet it is cutting edge and has excitement and has a lot of the fast development. How much of that is a piece of what you guys do?
[MEG]
So much of it. I mean, I don't think I could have done what I did in California where I'm from, I moved to Nashville about seven years ago and just took advantage of the Southern hospitality. Everyone was so nice. They introduced me to a lot of people, my first couple partners and just a lot more open armed than I think being in New York or California and doing business in terms of people willing to share their contacts or share their investors or that type of thing. It's a lot less competitive. Just not a lot of, I think having an outsider's approach to the Southeast was helpful because there's so many people moving from New York and California here, but I didn't see, I saw a gap in terms of the market of it being addressing like modern design for example. So I was able to sort of take advantage of that having come to Nashville and back then the locals were telling me I was paying too much for land. Now I wish I would've bought everything back then because I saw such a discrepancy between what people were willing to pay for a home in California and what they could pay for a home or apartment here.
[TYLER]
Sure. I mean, so live in Washington, lived in California for about eight years, lived in the central valley but originally from Ohio, so the things you describe, I understand very well. And now what's funny is you see California, some real estate and depending where you're at is actually like, even priced with some of the other places in the country. It's amazing to see how much that's changed but going back to where you first got started, how did you get into development?
[MEG]
I was in senior year, I spent in Barcelona and had a big transition at that point because I was going to be going into finance. It was 2008 and I'm so happy I didn't because I'm sure I just would've been laid off? I sort of derailed my career then because I came very interested in architecture and decided I didn't want to just spend my days in spreadsheets and so I got a job when I got back. I went to UCLA and I was always running around campus and got a job building luxury homes for a general contractor.
[TYLER]
How did that start? I mean, like, you're just ---
[MEG]
I love the, like, this will be a theme. I do run, I'm not like I'm actually really lazy. I'm not like some marathon. I mean, I have run a marathon, but I'm naturally very sedentary as a person. I hate working out, but I do run to get a landscape of everything, especially when I come to a new place where I'm traveling. I was traveling around, I mean, when I was running around campus, I would stop and look at these amazing building projects happening and I could see that it was something I wanted to be a part of. I did want to go into development, but at that time there were absolutely no jobs and I was so lucky to even get a job in construction because there were so many more experienced people out of work at that point.
But I built very high end homes and so that was sort of an insulated market at that time because celebrities still need houses even though there's a recession. So it was actually a great time to build and I just talked to the project managers a lot and sort of weezled my way in and got a job completely under qualified. But is a theme that I even think of with now, when I go to hire people, I was very willing, they saw me as very smart and also I hadn't developed the bad habits that a lot of people in the construction industry had. So I sort of had a fresh approach to just project management and accounting.
It was a 60 million project, which is the size of a commercial, my double the size of my first commercial deal here. So that sort of, I was able to my skill set to that, as opposed to, they had a bunch of guys that have been doing concrete for 30 years and shaking hands on contracts and things like that. You just can't do that. So it was a really a fun project management position. I was on a job sites for several years. Then you asked about commercials. So I did that and sort of applied those tools once I got to Nashville, but I've said this before in other interviews and things, but the CCIM courses were very integral to me getting a good foundation for investment analysis and understanding the commercial market.
[TYLER]
So an you take a couple minutes and describe that? I never knew it existed. In the preparation of this I learned about the CCIM. I think it's an amazing course that honestly, anyone that has a desire to be even a little bit invested in real estate I think would be probably a great course.
[MEG]
It really is. There's a series of courses and they identify like how to look at the macroeconomic development market and where to identify cycles. I still use a lot of those principles when looking at okay, interest rates are rising, supply and demand analysis, basic fundamentals that you need, if you're going to be doing development or any, really any sort of real estate investment. Then go into different product types like office, apartment retail. So, and it's a series of courses you take, there's 101, 102 and then you can do add-ons depending on what you're interested in, but it's almost like a little mini-master's program, but what's great about it is it's a lot more vocational. I went to UCLA, it was a great school, amazing basketball, but it really wasn't vocational. There's schools that are more vocational. I hate to say at UCLA has a really great real estate program, but it's a very academic. I was learning about political game theory. It's not like I don't really apply any of that.
[TYLER]
So you're in a construction zone, I get it. That's your job. It's okay, Meg
[MEG]
I'm always in a construction zone.
[TYLER]
It's like, at any point, you just imagine, what I'm imagining right here and let's just smile about it, you're watching Mike Rowe. I'm a huge fan of Mike Rowe. I love what he does. I love how he puts a spotlight on industries that people just like forget about, like you mentioned concrete, those things that are so pivotal, truck drivers, all those things. He would cue that perfect hammer in the background that saw going off and that just gives context to what he's doing. So hopefully everyone listening in can appreciate that. You're doing your job. It's all good.
[MEG]
I live amongst construction. I'm building a home right now and an office. So I can't find anywhere quiet.
[TYLER]
Yes, no. To circle back you one, as you described that getting that first position, and you mentioned that you didn't have the bad habits. You came in with an outsider's perspective and I know so many different people have, Liz Wiseman talks about that, how valuable that is to have a different perspective. You're not jaded by what the industry says, oh, this is just the way it is. But I also think about something that you talk about your finance and that perspective that if I'm the general and I'm thinking, all right, here's this girl, she keeps coming back. She has no interest in construction, but yet she wants to know, and she has this finance, man, she's going to bring something valuable to the team. Do you think that was a real part of it?
[MEG]
It is, yes, completely. And I even apply this in hiring. I look a lot more at the person. I mean, in real estate development, you do need people that have experience in it but for depending on the position, I look a lot more at the attitude, someone, how quick they are when they speak. We do a series of testing with people to make sure it's a good fit for them as well but it's for me a lot more about the personality and how resourceful someone can be, because if you're smart enough, you will figure it out or you're asked the right questions or you'll go online or read a book and figure it out as opposed to people that need to be babysat. I think it's more about a personality trait.
[TYLER]
I mean, I love that. I think that's something that's imperative, as moving forward is it's not about the skills that are on the resume or like, oh, I can do all these things. What attitude do you bring? If you bring that, I have no idea what challenge we're going to come up to tomorrow, but I have the confidence that I can figure it out. I mean, I take that's you. I mean, I get that impression of everything you've done, you pick up and move from California to Nashville and you're like, well, I'm just going to make it happen. There's an element where I believe that's probably a lot of your corporate culture.
[MEG]
Yes, and it comes off, can come off a little harsh in hiring and whatnot, but I do it for someone's own sake because everybody's very high performing on the team. If someone doesn't fall that, or they don't have that personality, which is totally okay, then they end up struggling. So it's just better for everybody if we all stick to the same sort of guide like that.
[TYLER]
So to circle back, go talk about that that first experience, but it's probably a mentorship relationship there. You first get started, seeing how the general, how much did that impact your current leadership style or what other experiences helped frame the leadership style that you have today?
[MEG]
Yes, I'm pretty, I would say that I'm really, I mean, I hire very qualified people, as I said, but I'm pretty hands off. I'm not a big micromanager. I would say I expect people, most of the people that work on the team are, this is very much their life. I mean, we do ground up development in Nashville. It's a really sexy time and it's really fun what we're doing but I sort of expect, I really just look at what someone produces and I don't really get into office politics or the emotional aspect of anything. It's something that I just sort of filter and I just only really focus on what someone's getting done and I help them that way, making a plan at the beginning of the week for what they're going to get done and did they meet their goals, setting big goals for the team?
That's kind what I tend to focus on as opposed to, "Hey, were you in the office at 8:30 or 8:00 and how late are you staying and less about the time spent. It's really about, okay, if you're jobs acquisitions, how many ROIs are you, or how many letters of intent are you bringing me? How many contracts are you getting like, like that. So we tend to be very utilitarian in that aspect and I think that that came early on in my career and I continue to have that big guiding principle for sure.
[TYLER]
Do you think that's a unique personality you have or is that something you learned?
[MEG]
I definitely learned that, I was very fortunate in that first career to build homes for people that were very successful. Because I was young and asking a million questions all the time that a lot of them, not a lot of them, but they took me under their wings and throughout my career until, even still now I answered my investors run a public, or larger private equity investors. So I've had exposure to a lot of ultra-successful people and it's just a constant that I've seen in working with those people, is that they just tend to be really focused on results and not process as much and data driven, which is something that I use in all my investment analysis. It's just like really being unemotional and looking at the data, remaining calm and not getting involved in too much of the personnel stuff.
[TYLER]
I think as I distill some of that, if you're finding the people that have the right attitudes that will help figure out the process, or maybe you have people on your team that are extremely process oriented and they're great having that laid out the corporate process, I think from a leadership point of view, the maturity to step back and say, hey, that's not my strength zone. And I gather from you're a visionary say, hey, this is what I see as the big opportunity next. This is where we're going. That's what I'm help leading the team. I also believe there's an element of the maturity in leadership to, when you can say, hey, just get the job done. I trust you. I've put everything around you to be able to succeed. Then it becomes, we're doing it together, as opposed to, I'm watching you to make sure you're getting the results day in and day out. Like the results are being engaged, but yet it's not, you don't have to have that while I'm constantly watching to make sure they're there because I've done everything beforehand to allow that to happen. Do you believe if you think about that's how it works?
[MEG]
Yes. So, I mean, obviously your audience is more entrepreneurial and I think that's something, if you listen to how I built this or other like other entrepreneurial, if you look at a lot of entrepreneurs over time, that is probably more, the role, is like setting the big goals and putting the ideas there and being more of a visionary. I have an amazing COO that does deal with a lot of these things, I'm sure, but he's very capable. He takes a lot of that, the smaller operations stuff off of my plate. That's another big part of being an entrepreneur, is really putting the right key people. I mean, I don't have an MBA or a lot of the things that normally a fund manager would, but I've put the right people on the team that get it and have those capabilities that fill the gaps where I don't have the skillset. So that's what I've found to be the most successful. When you get those key positions filled with the right people, it's exponential growth.
[TYLER]
I think my personal opinion on that, and I've seen this myself is because when you have that, you don't know what you don't know and so when you trust them to know it, they bring it and you're not sitting there second guessing them and you're like, okay, if that's what it is then great. I trust you. I know that's, what's best for us. I may ask questions that to clarify so I better understand, but I think what can happen in a lot of cases, you go back to your first construction job, you didn't know anything about it. So you couldn't sit there and say, is that the right way to lay concrete? Is that the right way to sit rebar, do all those other things. You're like, oh, if that's what you say is best, I may look for ways to be maybe more efficient, but I don't have this context of, oh, that's the way just done. Kind of like what you said is I don't have those bad habits,
[MEG]
Yes. I would definitely agree. Hiring for your weaknesses is definitely a big aspect of it. We do large institutional real estate and I had no background in any of that, but my key three executives all been doing it for decades. So that's definitely been a big part of the success for sure.
[TYLER]
One of the things that I gathered from you, and again, you seem like this visionary, who's willing to just blaze a trail and say, whatever, I'm driven by this. I have a desire for it. You work in an industry again that very few females, I think you're one of the first females to ever manage a billion dollars in real estate development. I think I saw something along those lines. I come from a background in agriculture. 20 years ago there weren't a lot of females in agriculture. There's a lot more now and I'd love to know, just share a little bit behind the curtains one, either, how that makes you feel like. Like I have a friend that, she's a large HR for a large multinational, multinational, agricultural firm, over 2000 employees. She's like, I don't view it as male, female. I just do the job. I love and appreciate that because that's more how I've raised, but I also recognize there are situations to where it is you don't fit here. So I want to be cognizant of that and I'd love to know your experience there. Help me see the lens in Meg's world in the construction development industry, how you've navigated through that or what challenges you've seen.
[MEG]
Okay, first I have to say, when someone asks me, if I wasn't doing this, what would I be doing, I say, I want to be a farmer. I love farming and I grew up on a pair orchard actually in Sacramento. That's hilarious, but I'm sure this translates across many industries. I try hard to not have our work be measured based on that because if you just look at the fact, we started in 2017 and we have this much, that alone would be exponential growth and success. So I try not to have it be that. I have to say as a woman entrepreneur, I've never felt at all disadvantaged or if anything, I almost think it's an advantage. I mean, there's a lot of private equity dollars now that chase women-owned businesses.
There's a lot of opportunity for women out there. I am in the south, I go to dinner parties with my husband and they just assume that we work together, I'm a real estate agent and he runs a company. There's all those stereotypes that's just annoying, but it really hasn't affected me in my business. And I would also say that I hope women have as much of an opportunity as I have. I've never, I think that they do, if that's what they want. I also realize that in the south, especially, or here much more than in California, I've noticed that women stay home a lot more. I think that's cool too. Someone has to raise the future generation. I've chosen to wait a little bit longer before we have kids. I plan to, I don't even know how I'm going to do that with my schedule but there is a plan. There's a project and a schedule plan for that time.
There's that timeframe, but it is something that is a lot more challenging, I'm sure. I think that's probably part of being a mother and trying to balance it. It is much harder and I would just say that, I think it's really cool when women choose that. I just think they should have the opportunity to, and not feel like that has to be because there's a lot of dads out there that are really cool, like stay-at-home dads or whatever. So I think it's unique. I personally have not experienced any sort of besides ignorance, like sheer ignorance I've never really experienced any disadvantages from it. So I would say to encourage if you're a woman listening and you have these goals, then it's totally doable. Sky's the limit. Go for it.
[TYLER]
There's a comment here that I want to ask you about, but I want to frame it in. I think it's human psychology, what we let affect us does and what we're blind to and we choose to not let it affect us doesn't. I could sit here and say my limitations from a physical or personal whatever could affect me if I let it. But if I know it and just choose to overcome it almost blind to it, then I don't. And I hear from you and I just, it's a comment I want to make, you talk about, you haven't felt limitations. You've actually seen opportunities being a female business leader, entrepreneur. So I want to say is it only affects you if you let it. Is that fair?
[MEG]
I think so. I mean, in terms of being a woman I don't know if that's the same for racial diversity or sure. Obviously, I can't speak to that but I think that I would like to see more women and more diversity in what I do. I mean, to be fair, most of every, if I think about who runs the funds of all my investors, it's all older white guys. But it is something because I'm also very young for what I'm doing relative to others that are in a similar position. So I think if you're mature enough and you can get the results, then yes, you don't have to let it affect you. But it goes back to when, in the beginning, I really didn't know anything when I started real estate development.
If I had learned about it first or maybe gone to business school about it, I probably wouldn't have dove in as deep as I did now. It was a rough first couple years and it was the school of hard knocks. But if someone told me when I went and got my first deal funded a typical, if you're doing a 30 million deal, you need 10 million in equity, well, I would've had to have a million dollars. If I knew that maybe I wouldn't have even tried. So it's that approach that I think, oh, any entrepreneur has, it's sort of like a ignorant approach or a naïve approach to the world.
[TYLER]
Yes. It's been shared to the ignorance on fire and I think there's a certain amount of knowing just enough, but not so much that you psych yourself out. Well, I can't do that because it couldn't be possible as supposed to why couldn't I? And it's that personal belief. I think one, you had that yourself, probably others poured that into you, but I think I see the opportunity as a leader for you now. You talk about your acquisitions agent. It's pouring belief in them say, oh, no, we can't get, yes, go get it. Why couldn't you. Go try it. I mean, all they could say is, no. You may end up a situation where the guy, the owner, the female, the family is like I'd love for that project to be on this property. Let me help you make this work. I just think about that.
I want to go back to, because you brightened up when we talked about agriculture. I grew up on a dairy farm. I was a nutritionist for dairy cows for 13 years in California. I lived in Bakersfield before I moved here. I'd love to know about growing up with a para orchard and just, how do you feel like those experiences, like you said, if I wasn't doing this, I'd be back there, I'd be doing that. I'd love to know what did you gain from that that made you the person you are today?
[MEG]
Oh, man, I think I really enjoyed that. I mean, I had a very, my parents were divorced, but they were friends. So I lived in LA for, I moved around a lot, so it made me a bit shy, but I always, my dad always lived in Sacramento on a para orchard and it was always, it was just a really great wholesome home to go back to and still is. I still go visit him but it's just sort of, it goes back to most of the people or investors I work with are based in New York. I've read all the books with the guys that started the related companies or Blackstone and most of them grew up or living in New York in their twenties and grew up with that understanding of the financial markets.
It is something I wish I had had more background on when I started because I really just went online. But I think that that growing up in California gave me a good, or it just gave me that entrepreneurial spirit where I think it didn't have that hardened miss. My parents both didn't go to college. They were very encouraging though and never limited me to what I wanted to do. There wasn't a lot of like rules. I always had good grades, was like the basic thing. If you have straight As, you can do whatever you want. I never had a curfew or anything. It was like that sort of upbringing that was wide open spaces, I guess, literally. So I think that definitely helped shape me as an entrepreneur and not, I never thought why I couldn't do something.
I actually, when I was studying abroad in Europe and stuff, I spent time with people there and it's really ingrained like in the people that live in like Germany, for example, I spent a lot of time there, they grow up thinking that you can only do this one thing and that you have to do this. It's like, da dah, dah, dah. Then you do this. It's like very pre-programmed. I think that's something that America really has, that gives, people have the sky's the limit for entrepreneurs.
[TYLER]
You mentioned something there that is funny, when you talk about this autonomy in your workplace allowing people just get the job done. My curfew growing up is I had to be up at 4:30. You say your curfew was just have straight A's. But I also look at that, to share an example to go back, but also where it came for me is, when I was 18, 19 years old, I had an internship, I worked on a farm and the owner of the farm said, "Hey, I'm working for you today. What are we doing?" That's been an experience that's been ingrained in me because he wasn't there telling me what to do, hey, he's leading. He's like you be the leader.
But that was also, I was raised in a, because I was on a farm it was like, figured out, man. I can't tell you everything to do, how to do. That's what I got from what you just said too. It's like you have straight A's. Then that's the requirement. What you do in your free time will help navigate some, but it's you to make the decisions and consequences. I thought that was really interesting because that's been natural to me to allow people that I work with, work with me to have autonomy. It's like, here's the job. Just do it. I don't care how you do it. You said that's imperative important for you, but I see you just mentioned that's what experience you had growing up too.
[MEG]
Yes.
[TYLER]
I think it's interesting. I think it's interesting because not everyone has that. There's a lot of people that are very controlled and they're told exactly how to do everything and maybe that's the leader they become because they don't know any different. So I just thought that was a very unique ---
[MEG]
Yes, it's interesting. I don't know what kind of parent I'll be but it definitely shaped, and we, my whole family gets up at 4:30 too, so I can call my mom and dad at 4:30 in the morning because it's the farm life. But yes, it's sort of that, no barriers. I think the grades it's like, whatever your measuring stick is, it's like, well, I'm sure they figured I wasn't out partying and doing drugs or something if I'm getting straight As? So it was just a way to, and I always was very involved and loved school and everything. So I don't know.
[TYLER]
So to wrap up, as we move forward, what's next what's? What do you see as this great opportunity for change that CA South has the power to invite people into? I'd love to know what Meg and what your organization sees going forward over the next five years of some challenges in real estate challenges economically, interest rates rising we have now more people that are looking for work that maybe it is construction in trades and stuff that there's tons of need there. We are developing a to housing deficit. So I'd love to hear from you just what you see happening.
[MEG]
I think for us getting to the billion dollar milestone was a very big step for us, especially because we had no track record or money when we started. So that was a great milestone and I, as the CEO have to really look to what you just said. Honestly what we've been able to do really well is we've sort of honed in our niches and really looked for undersupplied, so we tend to be very data driven. We look for undersupplied asset classes. So for condos, for example, I didn't plan and go every condo I build, I want to be able, I want the owner to be able to short-term rent it, which is what we do. We do short-term rental condos. That's our little niche. Not just regular condos or luxury condos, they can rent them out.
But I honed in on that through the process where I'm building and building, I'm listening to the brokers, they're telling me this is what's really needed. Then we pivoted and it ended up being very successful. Same thing with our logistic strategy. We appealed a smaller footprint users as opposed to what big Amazon, big box industrial that most developers focus on. Same with opportunity zones. So we have found our little niches and me as a CEO, it's getting, it's really tough to do ground up development., I mean, I look at big, larger institutional funds and it's hard to get that much asset center management with doing ground up development because it takes years to do one project. It's extremely complicated. It's the hardest aspect to do in real estate depending on the asset class.
So I've had to look and go just even in the environment in the last several months, I mean we price things out. It's 20% more than last year. Meanwhile, all this land sellers in Nashville thinks that they're sitting on a gold mine because they are, but the prices of land that, people gotten so unreasonable and it's like, well just because it costs me way more to build that doesn't mean those renters are going to be there wanting to spend 20% more on their rent. So I think for us, one we continue to be more institutional, which is something that works very well for us. I've never syndicated funds or asked the rich uncle for an investment or anything like that.
It's more based on institutional investors. So that means our project sizes have gotten a lot bigger. I think we are going to be right now about 30% of my portfolio's logistics is probably going to end up being more like 50%. We're going to be doing more value add because the cost of construction is so high. So I think we will likely expand into other markets, is another big step for us. We've gone into Huntsville, but continue throughout the Southeast. I see the Southeast being the future of America, so we'll probably only ever stay in the Southeast, but I'm targeting Charleston, Savannah, Fort Lauderdale, Jacksonville, St. Pete, Greenville, Chattanooga, Huntsville.
Those are the markets that I think the future's going. So I'm going to be very heavily focused on logistics given this environment. And that's just a pivot and that's what's great about having a few different asset classes. I don't just build office. We're nimble enough to be able to go, okay, well we know we do logistics. Let's really focus on this because this is that market right now. Then the other thing is we do have some larger, I'll probably veer away from super high-rise projects or things I was looking at or interested in, but it's going to be more larger, mixed use developments that are in our style are very modern style, but have an all-encompassing aspect to it.
That includes levels of affordability. We've never been a luxury developer. I've never wanted to build the four seasons. I've always wanted to build a luxury middle market or affordable luxury is what we call it. But it's basically like really nice clean, modern finishes that appeal but that is affordable. So I see really focusing on larger, mixed use developments that are done very well and tastefully more so than I think a lot are, but that are several hundred million that'll get us through and funded by players that can get us to hold and get us through whatever recession could be coming or whatever cycles there are, because they're so massive and they're large. That's a long way of saying logistics and master plan communities that encompass my style.
[TYLER]
I think it, I mean just to put a, I think it's so one smart. I agree with it. It's like we build up all of these multi-families but general, how are you going to get all the consumables to them? Well, if you aren't building, help building out the logistic centers, all those buildings you built, that's the next gap. Oh, that makes sense. Then I think we do, we're going to fast be into because we're already there where yes, people would like to have a single family home. Great. The cost there, the development of that what, then it does come to a multi-family, but it's like, but we want to have a nicer place. We don't want to just have an apartment. We want to have that condo. We want to have that luxury type condo, but I don't want a two to three to 5 million dollar condo because that's just not in our family, whatever it is.
So I think that's, I like the approach. I think it's very wise and it's the way you mentioned the ability to be nimble enough to say, Hey, what do people want? I think from a leadership from a marketing point of view, if you're always focused there, you can keep yourself from becoming the Blackberry. You can keep yourself from being, oh, well this is just what we do. You talk about your niche, what that opportunity is but what I hear in the niche is your niche is we're going to serve where other people don't want to, within these parameters but that's what I hear.
[MEG]
It's a great, great lesson for entrepreneurs because I've made that mistake of when I first got to Nashville, I did a luxury modern home that would be worth $4 million today. But I was just too early because, but that's what I wanted. I came from California but people, it was just too ahead of its time. So that's a tough lesson I've had to learn as an entrepreneur and why I always say, be super data driven. I had our market analytics company tell me in January of 2020 that all the millennials are going to be moving out of the city and they're going to be going to the suburbs. I was like, what are you talking about?
He told me this two months before the recession and I'm like, no, no, it's all about urbanization. Everyone wants to be downtown and walkable. Then there was this huge flight to the suburbs. He looks at a lot of information, but it's true. Millennials are growing up now and they need a place to go. So if you really stick to, you have to stick to your own convictions, but balance it with data so that you don't make mistakes and be blinded because it's an entrepreneur. It is important to be visionary, but you have to be data driven, otherwise you can make mistakes and get in trouble.
[TYLER]
To take that last point because I think it's the next big probably, I don't want to say big, but the real estate opportunity that is going to be converting retirement communities into young family communities is going to be happening in my opinion in the next 10 to 20 years because we have all these baby boomers that are no longer with us. Then what happens for that senior plus community? It's like, it has to be converted into some other use because gen X we're not big enough to own all those, to be in all those. So it's again, that being nimble, but also seeing it beforehand. I love it. Meg, thank you so much for your time. It's been fun conversation. Enjoyed hearing about you, learning about your experiences, but also taking the lessons that you've learned and just being willing to do it. I love that and I appreciate it. Thanks so much.
[MEG]
I appreciate it so much too. Thank you
[TYLER]
One of the things that, my great, I guess, opportunity in this podcast, to have conversations with people that I wouldn't necessarily be able to meet, as I talk to her to have a conversation like we're sitting down at Frothy Monkey in 12 south or Franklin, Tennessee. I just saw a picture of my friend. He was there having coffee this morning. If you're in that area, such a fun coffee shop, and if you're in 12 South, go across the street, get some Five Doners done. It's a little shout out to both Frosty Monkey, Five Doners. They are not sponsoring the show, but love when I'm in Nashville area to go to those shops.
One of the things that Meg mentioned that really I think is so important and it's in the context of, you'll see a barrier if you see a barrier. If we don't see barriers, if we don't know, she talked about the experience of coming into construction and she didn't have bad habits, she didn't know what she didn't know. I think that can be said is, I'll say this again. It only affects you if you let it. It's an attitude on a mindset. Now don't take that wrong. There are things, there are situations where people do do things to set you back and challenge you. But I'm going to say again, it only affects you if you let it. Push through it. I've heard from too many people in my life. My wife is an example. She doesn't, she just pushes through. She's like, if I want to do it, I can do it. There's no one stopping me.
I love that attitude. I got that same thing from Meg. I reference my friend, Molly, who shares the same thing and I love it. It doesn't matter in a female situation, it doesn't matter. That's the experience they can speak from. I can speak from my position. The times that have got me down, the opportunities that I've not been able to are the opportunities that I let affect me. I think as a leader are great opportunities to encourage others to say, hey, that situation you're dealing with right now, just don't let it affect you. You have some skill in you that is going to allow you to power through. It's that power of belief that's so powerful that I think the opportunity for a leader to bestow on others is magical.
One other thing before I step out of this episode that I thought was so imperative, we talk about this a amount of autonomy in leadership. I think that is a virtue in a lot of our societies or organizations, corporations that I think thrived in leadership styles, that thrived during the last two years and that will continue, are ones that don't micromanage. They understand what their skillset is. They have the right people in place, and it's saying, hey, here's the measurement stick. Just get the job done. I'm going to cheer you on. I'm going to help you lay knock down hurdles, but I'm not going to tell you how to do everything. I'm not going to control you. I believe people that have left jobs, look for different opportunities are looking for those places to where they're not being checked on every hour. They're not being, what time did you show up the office? What time did you leave their office? They're like, get the job done, go live a life.
I think that's so valuable in our society. It's something I champion. It's something that I've been bestowed. It's been an opportunity given to me as a entrepreneur, business owner, but also as an employee. I've been given that opportunity. I appreciate it tremendously. Again, thanks for being here. Appreciate it. I want to again, plant this seed. A new cohort group of the Impact Driven Leader round table will be starting here this summer. If you're interested, want to be a part of that, I'd love for you to join. Send a message to tyler@tylerdickerhoof.com. We'll make sure we get you signed up, reserved to be a part of that. Again, thanks for always listening in, being a great audience. Appreciate it. Until next time have a good.
