IDL69 Season 2: From Conflict to Courage with Marlene Chism
Do you avoid conflict? How can you make conflict rewarding? Can healthy conflict be used as a tool to expand yourself?
Marlene Chism is a consultant speaker and she’s coached numerous LinkedIn Learning sessions on conflict management. She’s also the author of From Conflict to Courage, which she and Tyler discuss and unpack in this episode. Marlene makes the case for us to change our relationship and perception of conflict. Rather than avoiding it, she encourages us to navigate it, and reap the rewards of deeper understanding, stronger collaboration, and more open, receptive relationships.
Marlene Chism works with leaders to build drama-free cultures that drive growth and reduce costly mistakes.
Marlene is an expert on the LinkedIn Learning platform offering courses in Anger Management; Difficult Conversations; Difficult Conversations for Managers, and Working with High Conflict People as a Manager.
Organizations seek Marlene’s leadership development courses to teach mid-level and senior leaders the strategic communication skills to initiate conversations that get results and increase accountability.
She’s also the author of four books, including Stop Workplace Drama and From Conflict to Courage. Marlene has a degree in Communications from Drury University and a master’s degree in Human Resources Development from Webster University. She is also an advanced practitioner in Narrative Coaching.
Visit Marlene Chism’s website, and connect with her on Twitter, YouTube, and LinkedIn. Email her at marlene@marlenechism.com
IN THIS EPISODE WE DISCUSS:
(Healthy) conflict can yield rewards (09:53)
Be curious (14:31)
Leadership clarity (17:10)
(Healthy) conflict can yield rewards
Healthy conflict is greatly beneficial for everyone involved.
If handled correctly, conflict can yield benefits and rewards because it creates a space where people are listened to, and given the opportunity to share their experiences.
The standard definition of conflict explains that there is a winner and a loser, whereas healthy conflict – an interaction dedicated to achieving a deeper understanding – does not have dichotomies of right or wrong, only to find deeper meanings.
So, get out of labeling all things in conflict as “bad” and strive to learn more about someone’s drive, desire, and demand, because then you are one step closer to coming to a truce agreement.
Be curious
Be curious about a situation. Ask more questions, and try to genuinely understand the inner workings of the situation instead of labeling it as useless or infuriating and leaving it to fester.
Be brave and dare to be curious. Set your ego and the desire to be “right” aside and try to figure out what is happening beneath the emotions.
Identify your inner conflict, because you seldom have an external conflict if you do not have an inner conflict, to begin with.
Components of inner conflict:
- A lack of self-awareness of where you have contributed to the problem
- An exaggerated response that has distanced you from the facts
- Lack of leadership clarity
Leadership clarity
What is happening that should not be happening?
What is not happening that should be?
Answer these questions to get close to the truth and to get past your perception of the situation.
1 – Self-awareness
2 – What are you committed to? What are your values?
3 – Embody your values.
Your values will – and should – help to guide your decision-making process. They must be integrated into your systems, not only stuck against the wall. Incorporate your values into the discussions that you have with your team.
The most difficult part of being a leader is doing your inner work, but it is so vital. Put your focus and care on the internal systems, because you cannot manage issues on the inside by controlling the outside.
Resources, books, and links mentioned in this episode:
BOOK | Marlene Chism – From Conflict to Courage: How to Stop Avoiding and Start Leading
BOOK | Marlene Chism – Stop Workplace Drama: Train Your Team to Have No Complaints, No Excuses, and No Regrets
Visit Marlene Chism’s website, and connect with her on Twitter, YouTube, and LinkedIn
Email her at marlene@marlenechism.com
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Check out the Impact Driven Leader Youtube Channel
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Email Tyler at tyler@tylerdickerhoof.com and sign up for the next Impact Driven Leader Round Table Cohort
About the Impact Driven Leader Podcast
The Impact Driven Leader Podcast, hosted by Tyler Dickerhoof, is for Xillennial leaders who have felt alone and ill-equipped to lead in today's world. Through inspiring interviews with authors from around the world, Tyler uncovers how unique leadership strengths can empower others to achieve so much more, with real impact.
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If I can understand their drive, desire, and demand then we might be closer than we think to having a real conversation and getting [to] an agreement.
Marlene Chism
Podcast Transcription
[TYLER DICKERHOOF]
Welcome back to the Impact Driven Leader podcast. This is your host, Tyler Dickerhoof. So glad you're here listening in. If you're watching on YouTube, glad to see you as well. All smile. I hope you smile too, man. I'm excited for this conversation that you get to tune into, listen to with Marlene Chism. Marlene is a consultant speaker. She's done a ton of trainings on LinkedIn, LinkedIn Learning. She wrote the book from Conflict to Courage, which we're going to reference in this podcast. The reason that I'm excited for you to hear this conversation with Marlene is one, just peace on this idea of conflict. We live in a society that is overwhelmed with conflict. There's certain personalities that really try to avoid conflict.
Well, Marlene makes the case that when we become comfortable with conflict, that really everything good comes from it. It's have the courage, in my own words to endure conflict, to know that conflict, however, it's defined really leads to some of the greatest developments that we can have. Because without conflict, everyone's just going along, do along. Whether you're a leader in an office, you're a leader just in your family there's conflict. The more that it's avoided, usually it gets ugly. That's what I found. That's what Marlene found and she'll share with us many tips that she has to manage through conflict, to become comfortable with conflict, understand conflict is just a tool that can be used. I hope you get value out of this episode today. Thanks again for listening in. As always, if you get value out of it, subscribe, share it with someone, make sure you subscribe on YouTube as well. Glad you're here. Get ready to take some notes and enjoy this conversation with Ms. Marlene Chism.
[TYLER]
Well, good afternoon, Marlene. I'm so excited to chat with you. I'm so excited to let more people know about your book, the most recent book from Conflict to Courage. When I first saw that word "conflict," I got quite intrigued and of course, as courage as something that I think is a leader, the more that we can embrace courage, the better leaders we can be. So I'm excited to dig into that and talk about it, but for maybe many of my audience who haven't maybe gone through some of your courses on LinkedIn or don't know who you are, I'd love for you to just take a second and tell the audience who Marlene is.
[MARLENE CHISM]
Okay, well, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited for the conversation we're going to have. I'm a consultant, an author, a trainer. I do it all. All of it's really under consulting the way I see it, because I always want my work to be strategic, but it really started out with Stop Workplace Drama, then No Drama Leadership. So you can see that theme running through of drama. They say you teach what you need to learn, so drama, this one is from Conflict to Courage: How to Stop Avoiding and Start Leading. Started during the pandemic. So I'm excited that it's almost here.
[TYLER]
So a question, you talked about conflict, you talked about drama, you said in your book too, you're like, hey, and I believe this leaders teach what they know. Sometimes they learn the hard way. I've learned a lot of things the hard way. I'd love for you to take the audience through how did this this concept, the whole drama and conflict that you saw in leadership show up in your life and to where you wanted to learn more and help people solve that problem.
[MARLENE]
Well, that's such a big question. It actually started when I got introduced to something called the Carman Drama Triangle, and it really changed my life. Have you ever heard of that?
[TYLER]
No.
[MARLENE]
It's a transactional analysis tool developed by Dr. Steven Carmen. So backwards a little bit, when I was going to get my master's degree and sort of still searching, I was in my business already, but struggling like most new businesses do. I thought, well, I might as well go get a master's degree. My professor said, if you'll just stick this out and get a master's degree, you will build a capstone. That capstone can lay a foundation to where you can be like Steven Covey. I had no idea what he was talking about, but I had been first introduced to the drama triangle, was very interested in human dynamics and in family systems and then how that could apply to the workplace. So I used that idea of drama in the workplace how it affects productivity and relationships. I built a capstone around drama and how it affects wellbeing, health relationships and that just became as you research, as you know, start getting more and more, and it's just one thread after another. Then my first book was Stop Workplace Drama.
[TYLER]
So now I believe this and I've been taught. This is people that have helped me. Each of us are unique and we have a unique superpower and we have something, a unique problem that we can solve. For me it was overcoming and dealing with understanding a lot of insecurity. I believe the solution to insecurity is empathy. I define empathy for you, maybe a new listener is putting your arms around someone and walking with them. To me, that's what the action of empathy in a leadership position is. So I want to take that mindset to give you a little context there. How did Marlene really get intrigued by drama and say, I want to make that my capstone? Was it a life experience? Was it a work experience?
[MARLENE]
It was both. I was one of those people that was searching for something new and I'd been at a job for 21 years. So the way that I positioned this is that I went through what I call the three life tragedies. The first one is you know want something more, but you don't know what it is. I was there for a very long time. Then the next one is you what it is, but you don't believe it's possible. Then you know what it is you believe, it's possible, but you have to be willing. So this for me started that search and I now looking back on it, see the value of wondering about purpose, sort of getting started in blue collar work, not having any framework and knowledge about how to make something happen.
So I see a lot of people now that they get stuck on the what's my purpose, and then they get stuck there. So I always say, well, your purpose, I'm going to give you one, it's to discover, develop and deliver your gifts to the world. If you just know that it's okay to be in discovery mode. Even if you're 35 or 40 it's okay that you're in discovery mode. That might mean going to get a master's degree, that might mean going to college, taking your first class. It might mean volunteering or trying a new business on the side. So it doesn't matter as long as you understand I'm in discovery mode, there's no need to prove myself to try to be successful. I'm in discovery.
Once I got that, I saw how that journey of that was the inner journey for me, a personal journey. I started getting interested in leadership and management because that's what the opportunity was in the marketplace. So then I started thinking about how the drama triangle applied to leadership and how I could make that into a business concept. So that's how it started. It started with my own desire of wanting to do and be more, but not knowing how to do that and then taking that and really developing myself into that expert and knowing how that happens now.
[TYLER]
Love to unpack that a little bit, because one I'm excited about it. Working in blue colors, you describe in your book, but also your bio factory work, done everything there. Then you have this, I would say, coming of age, which I've gone through. I think it's like, what do I really want to do? How do I really want to serve people? I think we're seeing a lot of that in the last couple years, COVID has driven people into that. They've also probably driven much what I would align with. Here's like I'm working at a place that's not bringing out the best in me. They're like, I want to go find something different. That's what I hear from you understanding how much of what you saw and had to work with from a leadership perspective really drove you to say, man, I want to be a part of the change and know that upcoming leaders I can help them be better leaders?
[MARLENE]
I started thinking about it from this perspective of, I saw this vision that I wanted to be maybe a speaker. I wanted to be a professional speaker and a trainer perhaps, but no bigger than that at the first. At first we all want to change someone else and we say that's poor leadership. I did that for sure. I'd say, oh, I had a boss that had three sayings. That's not the way it is. I didn't ask you to work here. If you don't like it, find yourself another place to work. So I had that awareness, but what really got me was more transformational. It was the understanding that even though I was at the lowest rung and I worked in a factory and had no real power, if I couldn't practice the concepts I wanted to teach right from where I was, it would never have the power because it's always easy to look outside of yourself and say, they need to be different. When I leave this factory, I'm going to tell bosses what not to do. I looked at it from a standpoint of, if I've got to have a difficult conversation with this difficult boss, it's not about me keeping notes on how he should change. It's about how can I, as someone powerless actually facilitate change. So that was really my method.
[TYLER]
Man, I love that because it's so valuable for whatever relationship, this whole idea conflict. Here's what I believe. I look at it as, you can describe it as conflict or difficult conversation.. We could parse that apart. Well, one of the things that I've learned, and I don't think everyone has this opinion, because I haven't gone through it is when I know there's going to be hard conversations, I get excited. Because I know this, I know something good is going to come from it. I don't believe everyone has that mindset about conflict. You dive into that a little bit in your book, but I'd love to have you share more of why doesn't everyone have that opinion of conflict or why do some people, this whole idea of like, how can I avoid conflict as opposed to seeing it as a catalyst to what you just described is like, hey I can I actually have some influence here
[MARLENE]
Yes. I think that first of all, because the definitions that we see for conflict I looked it up in the dictionary when I started doing this book and it's like a war, a clash. It's like, it's win, lose thing and I also think on the other spectrum is this positive psychology of embrace it. I think there's a middle ground where we say, okay, the reason something's hard and it doesn't matter if what's hard for me is not hard for you, if it's hard for me, it's hard, if it's hard for you, it's hard. So where we get off track is all that's nothing, all you got to do. It's really not about all you got to do and the only skill you need.
Skills are helpful, but what's really helpful is to redefine it, to say, it's an opposing drive desire and demand. So in other words, it's one arrow is going this way, another one's going this way. So instead of saying, well, they are so stingy, that business unit manager isn't concerned about my budget and they are so selfish, they don't see the bigger picture. If I can get out of a labeling and all that and say it must be that I don't understand their drives, desires and demands, while it might be stingy and there might be evidence of that, if I can understand their drive desire and demand, we might be closer than we think to having a real conversation and getting agreement.
So it's this ability to feel safe and to not feel threatened, like I have to win or I have to have the right comeback that I can actually feel something. Even if you smart off to me, I have the ability to say, I can circle back on that. I don't have to respond right now. I don't have to have the best latest tagline to win this argument. I can truly come from curiosity. Now I will say I'm not there a hundred percent of the time because I'm a really sarcastic person that's fast, I think fast. But the more I try and the more I re-wire myself, I have now decided to interpret my anger as I must need more information.
[TYLER]
What's funny about that is I find myself depending on the relationship where it's a lot easier. My life, it's hard. Other people, it's a little bit easier. I think what's interesting to me is I read the book and I be honest, like at the first, this ancient intense because if I see someone in my life that wants to avoid conflict most it's my wife. She does it from an honest point. She doesn't want people to be upset. She wants people to feel good. She was also raised in a home that the worst thing you could have was conflict. Conflict was avoided at every single point.
The home I was raised in, it was like, well conflict is okay, disagreements are good, like having different opinions. That was fostered and that was encouraged. It created sparks at times but I never went out of that, especially as an Enneagram 8, who's a challenger, I didn't see conflict as bad. Whereas, and again, she was raised in a home. that's like the worst thing that could happen was conflict. That means that someone just didn't submit and someone had to submit and it's like, I don't get that, like conflict's good
[MARLENE]
When it makes you feel unsafe, that's the real problem. What you said, you can fight. I think sometimes we can argue and it's not even really effective, but as long as we trust the relationship, as long as there's that trust it doesn't excuse really bad behavior, like name calling or violent behavior. But it's easier to not be so polished if someone knows your heart and you're trustworthy. So I really think the foundation of it is respect and a good relationship. Even if you get a little off base, there's some forgiveness. Like you said we're a little bit different at home in some ways than we are at work because we're more comfortable or maybe we're not as comfortable because it might. So it just depends on context to some degree, we just have to reevaluate how we see it.
[TYLER]
The context there that I try to relate this back to is this idea, in your title of like having courage to, even though if we don't understand the conflict to what you said earlier is be curious to it. I think as as a leader, I think of someone that's trying to influence others, the more curiosity we can have helps diffuse some of that conflict. Because if someone has an opinion or in this situation where they say there's an issue here being curious to say, okay, why is it that they have that perspective? If I lean into that, as opposed to whatever they're trying to do is to hurt me, man, I feel like then all of a sudden that conflict turns into I'm courageously want to engage. That's my deep plan. I'd love for you to ---
[MARLENE]
Yes. I'm curious. That is right. I try to increase my curiosity. It's hard to, though, when you want to win something. When you think you're right, whenever they don't understand, when you feel like you're not understood, it's really hard to be curious. This is one of the philosophies of the book that I think is going to help a lot of people. It's something that some people have a hard time grasping at first, but there's a philosophy in the book that there is no conflict unless there's first an inner conflict. So what I mean by that is if I, let's say, I need to talk with you and it's going to be difficult, but I like you, I don't want you to be mad at me. I've seen you be defensive before and he can be rough because he doesn't mind conflict. So now I have an inner conflict.
I want to say something, but I also want you to like me. Now that's what the real conflict is there because we haven't even had the conversation yet and yet I'm telling my friends, I already know what he is going to say. I've had this before and he's going to say X, Y, and Z and then I'm going to say A, B, C, and then we're going to play verbal ping pong. So what my method is really a lot is to identify the inner conflict, where am I divided? Why am I divided? If I'm divided that I have to have a difficult performance conversation, is that because I see them as weak? Is it because I've allowed the behavior for two years and now I'm a part of that I know they're going to say, that's not fair? Why didn't you make Jane do the same thing? So we have to resolve the inner conflict really before we engage, if it's really a conflict and we're avoiding, we have to resolve what's going on internally first.
[TYLER]
So in the people that you've helped the leaders, how much do you think that is the bigger conflict?
[MARLENE]
I know that's the bigger conflict because either a lack of self-awareness of where they've contributed to the problem or they've exaggerated and they don't know how to get to the facts or what I find is the bigger problem. I call it leadership clarity in my book. This is, and I'm probably sure you have this, you see this problem with your clients that first engage with you. They have their idea about what solution they need before they've even defined the real problem. So I call that leadership clarity. We want to really articulate and understand the situation first. Then we want to say, what's the outcome we're seeking? Then we have the two points that create dynamic tension.
Then we want to say, well, what are the real or perceived obstacles? Because until you understand that and it takes time, but everybody wants a workshop, a coaching initiative, a project. I get the third person to call me and say, what's your price? So that's my biggest problem that I have in educating either deciding to do a training workshop, to get my foot in the door or to say, let's really evaluate what's the situation, what's the outcome, and what's the obstacle because many times the real situation is the top leader doesn't know how to communicate downward to that coach, that leader.
[TYLER]
Well, it's when leaders or again, this struggle of inner conflict then creates abdication to say, hey, just solve the problem for me. It's like, no, you're the problem. But the problem is that you're choosing not to engage because you're stuck in this inner conflict of, well, I don't have to deal with that problem. That's not my problem to deal with. I think that's to my viewpoint, if we look at the leadership arena in the world today, that's a lot of it, is we have a changing of generation. We have a younger generation of leader that's now thrust in the position of leading and they're looking at to say, well, what model do I follow and, or is all conflict bad because as a generation we've had this, hey, we'll just avoid conflict as opposed to courageously I'm going to find reality and try to identify reality. You discuss a little bit of that. So I'd like to take some time as like, what's the process that you've seen to help leadership define reality to process through that conflict?
[MARLENE]
I'll say, a question that I'll ask is it's so simple, it is what is happening that should not be happening or what is not happening that should be. Because if you can actually say what is happening or not happening, that should or should not be happening you're really close if you're just speaking in facts and not your perception. Because if you're saying something like, oh, well they've got a terrible attitude and they're not engaged, I don't know what that means. What's the evidence of that? They should be giving ideas at meetings and they're not giving ideas at meetings. I can work with that. Then we can dig a little deeper to say, well, if you would shut up and ask a question, maybe they would. Like, you think they need a workshop to engage? Actually, you need to be quiet and listen.
So it's just about really identifying if they can articulate that I can work with them. A lot of times I solve it before we ever even engage in a project because it's really pretty simple. It's almost always a lack of awareness, lack of clarity and a lack of leadership clarity. Once you can get to that root of what's happening or not happening versus all the story you have around it, including the story of I'm a hands off leader, this was their job, no, you're their boss, so you also have to coach and mentor them. So it's the stories we tell ourselves. It's the assumptions that we make. It's the lack of clarity.
[TYLER]
So I mean, you identify in this conversation we've talked about is like really the hardest person for any leader to lead is themselves. It's finding that clarity, it's identifying the inner conflict. Where do you think is the greatest place to start for leader in that like, okay, where's my self-leadership start or structuring that to start?
[MARLENE]
Well, I would say self-awareness, first of all. Know yourself and you can take the DISC and the different measurement tools. Those are helpful. Be careful not to let that become your identity is what I want to say, because you can make shifts. I like to talk about, what am I committed to? What are my values? To me, that's a place to start. We talk about that and it sounds so esoteric. What I mean by this, you have to embody it because you can say, oh, I value respect, I value kindness, and then yet you're on social media, calling people names if they don't believe the same way you do politically. So you might value it. You're misaligned though, because you're not living it because if you value kindness, you'll be kind, even when it's difficult to be kind. If you value respect, you'll respect people, even though you'd rather call them a name or win the argument.
So embodying values is about really clarifying what does that value mean, how does it show up, how do I identify it? How do I see the lack of it? So a lot of my work is about listening to what people say they value and looking at how they behave. Once I was working with a group of hospital executives and I asked what their top value was. Of course, this was a corporate value, which was obviously compassion, because it always is in healthcare and then I said, well, what does compassion look like? Stunned, I mean, deer in the headlight, don't know. Yes, well, but the ice talk, a toilet paper so that it's easier for people to grab what they need. That's compassion. I said, or is that watered down just so that we can say that fits into, like, to me, that's just doing your job. That's consideration.
But compassion to me is the nurse who has already worked a double shift, but someone's husband got sick and they're willing to stay two more hours until someone else comes in or it's sitting with a patient when they're already tired. Compassion to me is so much different than just stocking toilet paper because you're getting paid to do it. So I think it's about really setting and visiting with what that looks like in your workplace. How do you know it? How do you define it? How do you smell it? What it look like, sound like, taste like because you can't do that. It's not a real value.
[TYLER]
I shared this I think in one of my recent conversations and it's something new that I've discovered and I believe this, that if the values of an organization in a leader aren't identified in the mission and the vision, then it's really not a core value. Because I believe that, as you just shared that if a hospital says compassion, but their mission is not to display compassion, or if in their vision, they're saying, hey, we treat our customers, we treat our patients with compassion and this is what it looks like, then I think it's really hard for people to say, oh, that makes sense. I think you take that one step deeper, what does every leader have and what does that look like? As you just said in that exercise, okay, you say compassion, but how's that really play out? I think that's where you see one leader move in and one leader move out and they're like, oh, we had compassion on the wall but we never really did anything with it. So it must not be that important as opposed to taking the opportunity. It's like, huh, what really does matter to the job we do?
[MARLENE]
And really the conversations that we have. So if I'm coaching an employee to say, so that showed me a lack of compassion when you left early, it showed a lack of concern, which is very well related to compassion because how do you think someone felt when they were needing to go home? So using it in your conversation, in your language and the way that you make decisions versus, well, it's up there, but this is really just about you doing what the policy says. So it's embodiment. I've had so many leaders say and they throw all these models. Sometimes CEOs of companies like maybe small businesses, small enterprises, they're excited about leadership because they're studying it and they've read every book on leadership. They're showing this one's model on this and this one's model on that.
They want their employees to memorize these models and they don't know why they're not getting it. Well, for one thing, it's not about a checklist or memorizing models. The model is there to help you incorporate something and to make it easy, a mental map for you to understand how to use this material and apply it to your own life. So when you're throwing so much training and development and models at people, the behavior is what really counts and that's a slower process. So I think that's part of the issue too.
[TYLER]
Well, I think we have come fast into our world where everyone, you mentioned this earlier, we break down the corporate hierarchy. The CEO says we need to have better leaders, we don't have enough good leaders. Then you go to one of the HR, the VP, and they're like, all right, well, how do we put together this leadership training? It's like, well, X, Y, Z person has the perfect formula. This would just fit. The hard time I have with that is I mentioned you, I grew up on a farm. I learned a lot through life growing up a farm and one day this is the situation that was in front of me. I had the only tools that I had and the next day, the situation's totally different. I got the same tools. I need to know how to use those tools. I think that's what I seek it so often loft tonight, I try to talk about here on this podcast is like, it isn't necessarily having the perfect just, I guess recipe of what to do. It's knowing, hey, here are the tools in your toolbox, figure out how to use them. I think as I hear from you, part of that is understanding that conflict can be used as a tool, not something to avoid.
[MARLENE]
It's something that you can use to expand yourself. That's how I look at it. We're always pointing at other people on what they have to do. It may be true they need didn't do that but if you look at conflict as my greatest teacher, why do I feel so resistant about this? Why am I avoiding this conversation? Why did I say, yes, that's a great idea when in fact I thought it wasn't and was there a better way to say, I'm not sure I want to, like, there's still ways to be really kind. Even if you have conflict to say, I want to marinate on that because I'm having some inner conflict versus, oh, I love it. You're so smart.
If we're not aware of the ways we appease other people and try to get and manipulate to get our way, if we're not aware then we're going to have a lot of conflict without meaning to create that conflict, I often say we're only as honest as our own levels of self-awareness. I was working with one client where they're wondering why some of the people they serve are so angry and it comes to find out they're promising things they can't deliver because they're wink, wink, yes, this is great. This is going to be an awesome opportunity, good sales, but you can't follow through. So we have to be really aware of where we mislead people by false expectations.
[TYLER]
You identify it. I think it makes so much sense because we seek comfort first. That's how you identified. I think that sinks in and makes so much sense. So like if our first inclination is always comfort, we're not going to necessarily grow and we're not going to experience some of the painful stuff that actually is going to help move everything forward. We're going to, like you said ---
[MARLENE]
Yes, go ahead, sorry.
[TYLER]
Well, I was just going to say, we're going to say, oh yes, that's great. Let's do that because it's comfortable as opposed to no, that stretches me. I'm not real comfortable with that. It's not an ethical problem. It doesn't conflict my values, but that's hard as opposed to being that transparent and honest, we're just like, eh, okay, great, I'll go along with
[MARLENE]
Yes, part of the work in this book, I talk about emotional integrity and being willing to really represent yourself and to say it's okay to say I'm angry when I hear that, or I'm confused. I want time to think about it. Like just the other day, I had a pretty big opportunity. While I was having the opportunity excited, I also felt overwhelmed. So I just said, I'm just going to be transparent. It sounds fun and I can see how wonderful it would be, but I also feel really overwhelmed. So I've got to align this excitement with the belief that I can deliver for you. Oh no, you wouldn't have to do this part. I'm like, see if I would've not brought that up. I would've either turned it down or not continued the conversation because I'm not going to be overwhelmed. It's not worth it to me right now. But if I just say I'm feeling overwhelmed, I want you to think I'm competent, but there's factors going on in my life right now. So let's talk about that and what you really expect.
[TYLER]
To me, that's authenticity. The more that we courageously embrace that internal conflict, man, I think that's what healthy leadership looks like. I had a friend and I'll share this for your fact, he said the CEO that makes the biggest impact isn't the guy or girl that's sitting there that has their hair in perfect spot, they got the perfect suit, everything looks perfect. It's the one that stands in front of the room, has their sleeves rolled up and says, my pits are sweating too but I believe in everyone in the room and we can get this done. That's the person that I want to follow. It's not the one's like, no, no, this is a bra. We got this. It's okay. Because that false bravado gets back to that, are they just trying to make everyone comfortable or willing to be authentic and say, hey, here's, what's really in front of us.
[MARLENE]
That's probably the scariest part of leadership, is just really, it's that inner work. Because if you're really, really smart and educated and you rose fast, it's hard to want to be humble. It's hard to want to look inward. There's a desire that has to come with that. You have to see the greater good. It can't just be about, oh, the numbers and my success and what everybody else thinks. So I think that's where conflict comes in. You can say that you don't have problems with conflict, but if you're at the top, you don't have to have problems with it. The more power you have, I think Daniel Goldman said the less of where you are.
[TYLER]
Yes. I mean Cole, with Young Brands and now with I think Athletic Greens she says, get closer to the transaction, as a humility for a leader is the closer you get to the transaction, the less rose-colored glasses that you can have on because you, oh, that's the real problem. Like they don't care about our packaging. They care about the product and making sure that it's good or they don't care what the product looks like. They want to make sure the packaging makes them feel good to buy that product, consume that product. I think those are again, you wrestle with these conflicts. I love the word courage, because to me it just takes courage to manage through all that. If you can have courage to manage through it, ah, you're going to be all right.
[MARLENE]
You expand, you expand. Then the way that you know that you've changed is that what bothered you last year or last week or last month now becomes something where you're curious or something where you stay in the conversation or where you circle back around. I see so many leaders say, well, I missed my opportunity and I should have said, I would've said and I'll do it next time. My suggestion is circle back around and say I got thinking about our conversation because it's easy to tell yourself a lie that you'll get it next time, that you have to learn how to rewire and the only way you rewire is to trigger some sort of emotion. You're going to have a motion if you promise yourself, you're going to circle back around and address something that was difficult to you and now you're telling yourself it's no longer difficult. I got it. Next time I'll do this. You may not unless you circle back around.
[TYLER]
Yes, I mean, it's being willing to say, oh, I need to take a different look at this. I need to see it from a different perspective. That means, oh, I didn't get right the first time. Maybe that's going to, I have to come to grips with, as you said earlier, that inner conflict of, or are they going to think less of me because I have to take a different look at this. I need to reevaluate my stance, my tactics, my strategy and having the security to do so.
[MARLENE]
And knowing that people appreciate when you help own the problem. So one of the concepts I talk about is just own your part, like, hey, I've noticed I've observed X, Y, and Z. Here's the deal. I've allowed this for three years. I did it because of COVID. I should have stopped it four months into COVID, got overwhelmed, no excuse, but we're going to have a fresh slate, a clean slate. That way I'm a part of it. It's not just you. You should have known, you did bad. No, I, as a leader, I avoided something because of many factors. Now we're going to have a clean slate and now we can get realigned and people appreciate that so much when they don't feel like they're getting blamed.
[TYLER]
I have a 15 year old daughter and a week or so ago, it's funny, kids today, they, of course, text and that's how they start conversations and she's telling me about some of her grades. She's like my grades, aren't where they're supposed to be. She's explaining it to me and she's like, I know you're going to be mad at me. I'm like, I'm actually not mad at you. But I'm thinking back that was her conflict that she thought sharing that was going to make me upset. I'm like, no, you've owned it. We're good. If you had said, there's nothing wrong and all of a sudden we get your grades and you've blown it off, then we're going to have an issue.
But it also made me stop and think it's like, okay, her perception was that I was going to be angry. It's like, well, that's a healthy fear in a way, but yet, how am I reacting at times to drive that? I think that could be the same in any leadership relationship. If people are coming to you and they're willing to say it because they have to, but they're concerned about you being upset on that and say, hey, and I explained to her, I would be upset if you didn't own it, but you owned it. We are good to go. There's nothing too big to deal with.
[MARLENE]
I love how you're promoting that with your children, just the ownership idea of that. I saw something, I think it was Jordan Peterson, it was on a video that said a snowball is better than an avalanche. So when there's bad news, I talk about not blind siding your own boss. Of course, they might be upset. They might react. It's okay but stop resisting. You probably read the chapter on resistance, stop resisting their resistance. If they get angry, that's okay but your job is to report the truth of what happened and what you think you're going to do to fix it. So when we avoid someone because we know what they're going to say, or we're afraid of their reaction, there's like three layers of resistance going on there. It's not just about what they're going to do. It's your reaction to what they're going to do.
[TYLER]
I believe this, one of the greatest barriers to leadership is in activity, is that oh, I don't want to press into it. I want to avoid this, which you identify so well as being a big part of avoiding the conflict and it's like, no, you got to engage in it. You got to put in the work and that can help move it forward. I think there's one thing that I really captured and I appreciate this and maybe just a note to end on is conflict, isn't the problem. It's how we respond to it. It's how we frame it, how we believe that conflict, what it means and or what it could result in. That's the real problem.
[MARLENE]
Yep. Conflict is not the problem, mismanagement is, and if we can't avoid it that's a mismanagement. You've probably seen this too, moving people from one department to the next, because, well, they're a troublemaker, so you know what, or they're going to retire in four years. Let's just hang out. We're not going to try to course correct now because we've been giving them great evaluations for the last 25 years. So we really can't do anything. That's government entities. Can't do anything about it now because if they have to, you can't fire them. So yes, the avoidance is mismanagement.
[TYLER]
Yes, it's created a culture of management, leadership through avoidance. We can't say anything as opposed to man. That's not serving anyone. So yes, Marlene, I thank you so much for the conversation what a tremendous message in this book from Conflict to Courage. I appreciate you joining me today and sharing so much.
[MARLENE]
Thank you for having me.
[TYLER]
Absolutely appreciate it.
[TYLER]
One of the tools that Marlene mentioned that I think is probably most powerful is not only curiosity asking questions, but it's asking this question, I'm going to read it here. What is happening that should not be happening if we think about that in a context of our life, leadership, whatever it is, and if we just sit back and ask the question, what is happening that should not be happening? I mean, there's a whole host of next steps that come from that. We start to define actually what's happening and then we start to clarify what we wish to happen because if it's happening and there's something not happening, it clears up what you do want. I think that always leads a leader back to their vision. It leads a leader back to their values and mission. We discuss that. I think it's imperative in this process of managing through conflict is how do you assess that from a values point of view?
Are you being outwardly aggressive defiant, as Marlene said at times, are you choosing to roll your eyes and be passive aggressive? Are you willing to be curious? You're willing to say, wait, I sense here that you're not falling along. I sense here that maybe you're upset. Can you help me understand? Can you clear it up a little more? Can you explain to me what's happening, that's not happening. Well, what did you expect to happen in this situation so I can be aware because we're not on the same page? I think that curiosity and that willingness to dig in when there's conflict, now, sometimes you may have to take a step away. Calmer heads will prevail, but I do believe this, the leaders that are able to manage through conflict the best are leaders that are able to affect change and create impact the most.
It takes a maturity, takes a healthiness. It took, it still takes me being healthy in certain situations into a constant work. But I believe that is the option. I believe that's what really comes out of having courage. I hope you got value from today's episode. Thanks for listening in. Go check out Marlene's book from Conflict to Courage. I know you're going to get tremendous value. It's how to stop, avoiding and start leading. I think that's one of the great keys in leadership. is leadership. Isn't done by avoidance. It's done by action. Sometimes the best action is just asking questions.
Thanks for being here. We'd love for you to rate, review wherever you listen to podcasts, share it with others, share it with people in your network. If you got value out of this, I'd love for you to send me a message. I love reading those and I'm excited for others to join into the Impact Driven Leader book club. Again, we will be launching a new cohort group in July. If that's of interest of you, if you want to learn more about it, I'd love for you to send me an email at tyler@tylerdickerhoof.com. Would love to have a conversation with you and let you know about the group, the round table and bring more to your life. Thanks for being here. Have a good one. Will catch you next time.
