IDL73 Season 2: Leading with Intention with Chris Robinson
Why isn’t attitude everything? Can you develop yourself as a person to improve as a leader? If you were your employee, would you follow yourself?
Today I sit down and have a conversation with my friend Chris Robinson. He is the executive vice president of Maxwell Entrepreneurship Solutions, aka the John Maxwell Team. Chris has been in this leadership role for over two years and he and I have a great conversation reflecting on the experience of being apart of Maxwell’s team. We also get into the idea of ‘leading yourself’ and finally, conclude this episode talking about values, leadership, diversity, inclusion, and intentionality.
Chris Robinson is a founding partner of the Maxwell Leadership Certified Team. As the Executive Vice President of the Maxwell Entrepreneur Solutions, he leads a global team of over 40,000 speakers, coaches, and trainers.
Chris is an international speaker who has enthralled crowds as large as 4500 and trained small groups inside of companies weekly before taking on his current role as the EVP of the Maxwell Entrepreneur Solutions.
John Maxwell has made a tremendous impact on Chris’ life over the past 20 years. As a sales representative for the largest vehicle service, Chris quickly advanced 3 positions in 5 years to a Senior Sales Manager by learning and then applying John’s principles.
Chris helped grow that company from 18 employees to over 700. Years later he became a part of John’s team as a certified coach.
For more information about Chris and the Maxwell Leadership Certified Team, visit maxwellleadership.com.
IN THIS EPISODE WE DISCUSS:
Attitude is the main thing - 07:45
Be candid with care - 12:50
How did you develop your leadership style? - 18:28
Would you follow yourself? - 25:48
Attitude is the main thing
Most people like to talk about how attitude is everything.
It is not. Attitude cannot compensate for skill or ability, but it is still incredibly important because it can always be changed and improved.
Attitude is about perspective and taking a positive stance on a tough or complex situation.
Be candid with care
Many leaders think that they have to be harsh, unforgiving, or ruthless with people to motivate them to do something. However, this breaks trust and creates a negative or unproductive environment.
You can lead people with discipline that is rooted in compassion.
How did you develop your leadership style?
Most leaders learn how to care for their teams in one of two ways:
- They witness a bad leader and decide to base their approach on what not to do
- They witness a good leader and try to model that behavior
Develop yourself as an individual and grow as a person.
Become and embody the greatest leader that you know, because you can only lead to the extent that you have developed yourself.
To be better, you have to learn more, so that you know how to do better.
Would you follow yourself?
The first step to becoming a better leader is to feel like you would happily and confidently be able to follow yourself.
This will guide you to lead with integrity, accountability, and vulnerability.
Types of leaders:
- Positional leadership: someone will listen to you because of your role, position, or title. After they clock out, how much influence do you still have over their life?
- Peer leadership: leading those who are on a similar level to you, and they follow you because they want to and not because they have to.
- Influencing the influencer: this is the highest level of leadership. Can you influence and lead those who are above you?
Resources, books, and links mentioned in this episode:
BOOK | John Maxwell – 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership
BOOK | Jim Collins – Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap and Others Don't
BOOK | Mark Miller – Smart Leadership: Four Simple Choices to Scale Your Impact
BOOK | John Maxwell – The 360 Degree Leader: Developing Your Influence from Anywhere in the Organization
For more information about Chris Robinson and the Maxwell Leadership Certified Team, visit maxwellleadership.com
Connect with Chris on Facebook and LinkedIn.
Join the Impact Driven Leader Community
Check out the Impact Driven Leader Youtube Channel
Connect with Tyler on Instagram and LinkedIn
Email Tyler: tyler@tylerdickerhoof.com
About the Impact Driven Leader Podcast
The Impact Driven Leader Podcast, hosted by Tyler Dickerhoof, is for Xillennial leaders who have felt alone and ill-equipped to lead in today's world. Through inspiring interviews with authors from around the world, Tyler uncovers how unique leadership strengths can empower others to achieve so much more, with real impact.
Rate, review and subscribe here on Apple Podcasts or subscribe on Stitcher and Spotify.
You attract who you are, not what you want.
Chris Robinson
Podcast Transcription
[TYLER DICKERHOOF]
Welcome back to the Impact Driven Leader podcast, your host, Tyler Dickerhoof. Let me get the mic all set and ready here. Comfortable in my seat. Man, I'm glad you're tuning in to this episode. I sit down and have a conversation, actually stand up, have a conversation with my friend, Chris Robinson. Chris is the executive vice president Maxwell Entrepreneurial Solutions, The John Maxwell team, as it was formally known. He's been with Maxwell company about two years now, in that leadership role two and a half years. I got to know him over the last couple years, being involved in different organizations and spent time with him, have a great conversation talking about that experience as a leadership coach, what he does the Maxwell organization but then we get into this idea of leading yourself. What does that look like? We get breaks down some amazing things.
Then we finish off the episode with what I think is some of the greatest information when talking about values and leadership and intentionality, diversity, inclusion, equality, all those things. It is, one of the reasons that I wanted to talk to Chris to have that perspective of someone who's involved in training and equipping leaders. A man who was of color, he is black man who lives in Florida, grew up in Missouri, so far different than what I have had my friend Roy Hall, which he and I talked about that disparity, but yet that common value system, Chris and I tapping that today. I hope that brings value to you.
I hope that brings value to you no matter what race, background, creed, religion, any of that is but being able to appreciate and understand from a leadership perspective, how I can make a bigger impact. To me, that's why I'm here. I'm helping others. I'm trying to equip and lead and help others get healthy too because I had to get healthy first. I had to be a better leader. I had to be a healthier leader who set aside my insecurities, led with vulnerability, compassion and empathy and man, I think that is the solution. I appreciate you listening in. If you've gotten value so far, if you get value on these episodes, share it with somebody. I'd love for you rate and review wherever you listen to, Spotify, Apple, Google. It doesn't matter. We're there.
[TYLER]
As well, if you're watching in on YouTube. Hi, good to see ya. I'll be back with you at the end of this episode. Make sure wrap everything up, get all those notes, make sure you have pen paper. If you walking around, don't worry. Use the note section in your phone. It's a great place for it. Again, thanks for being here. Hope you love this conversation with Chris Robinson. Chris, welcome to the Impact Driven Leader podcast, man, I am excited to have a chat with you and as I was thinking about the more leadership conversations and I'm like, dude, I know Chris and I, we always have great conversations when we're together; that we would have a really fun you multifaceted from a topic point of view podcast. So that's why I wanted to talk to you. Also, this podcast is getting released in the month of June when we have the anniversary issue, the anniversary book of the 21 Laws. So oh, all that works together too.
[CHRIS ROBINSON]
It works together. It works together and I'm glad to be here with you today too.
[TYLER]
So for our audience that maybe is not real familiar with the Maxwell leadership, you've had a big role there. You have an even bigger role today, which is exciting as you're always doing more things. I'd love for you to just share with the audience what your role is and then we will find out how you got there.
[CHRIS]
Sure. Well, Hey Tyler, I'm excited to be on with you. I've had the privilege of having some incredible experiences with you all around the world and have the opportunity to get to know you and just, I want you to know how much I admire you and how great of an individual you are as not only a business person, but a father and just a good overall individual man. I love seeing you everywhere we go. Can always know I can just, hey, I need to go talk to Tyler right there because we're having a great time somewhere on the planet, but for those of you that don't know me, my name's Chris Robinson, I am the executive vice president of Maxwell Leadership Certified Team. We have trained over 43,000 coaches around the world and I have the privilege of leading that organization since January of 2020. But as Tyler said, it didn't start off that way. I've got this big, long, big title to work for the number one leadership guru in the world but like most I started off just an average guy with the dream and a desire to make an impact and a difference in people's lives all around the world.
[TYLER]
So as we dip into that first, what is your specific role within that? What are you doing day to day as you navigate where the Maxwell leadership is going?
[CHRIS]
So day to day is split into a couple different dynamics; one I'm still a teaching faculty member for the team. So I still equip our Maxwell Leadership Certified Team coaches on how to build a business as a coach, speaker and trainer. So I'm still teaching. I still have high interaction with the coaches. Then I lead the overall organization in terms of our sales, our marketing, our event that we put on two times per year, the acquisition of new team members, the development of current members. I get a chance to see it all, the whole gamut of what we do for this organization.
[TYLER]
You as well, one of the Maxwell leadership, they are now having this clear curriculum and you are leading attitude. I'd love to talk a little bit about that. One of the things I read that John shared this morning, just part of my daily reading is you can grow your skills two, three points, but the growth ceiling for attitude is unlimited. I thought that was telling, I thought that was great as I was thinking about today and coming on to talk to you about attitude. I'd love for you to just share about attitude and kind your perspective and your journey there.
[CHRIS]
When it comes to clear that's one of the things where John and mark had really decided that, hey, over the years, John has really built all of his books, all of his content out of five different areas, communication, leadership, equipping, attitude, and relationship. So mark and John came together and they said, hey, who represents or models these five areas of your life that could potentially be guides to teach the Maxwell way of these specific areas? I was fortunate enough to come to mind with John and say, hey, Chris is the guy that represents me an attitude and truly an honor and privilege to represent John and his content for the area of attitude because it is one of those areas that he talked about as you heard this morning that it can grow infinitely instantly.
Now very rarely is there an instant, positive attitude there can be, but there is instant negative attitude. Now you've seen that go throughout organizations very quickly but instant, positive attitude, very rarely spread throughout that. But when we look at attitude, it's one of those things that we think, oh no, I've heard about that my whole life. No, no, no, my attitude is good. I'm good on attitude. Well, you probably need to work on that if that's the first thing that comes to mind. Well, attitude's basic, it is. You always hear the phrase attitude is everything and everybody will complete that phrase, but attitude isn't everything. But it is the main thing. Prime example of that.
My children, I've got six children, I've got triplets, I've got twins, I've got a single, two of them were running track this season. This year they were running track and they made it, they did well in several meets and then they were going to the district meet which there's districts, then there's regional then there's state. Well in the district meeting, my son their team had dropped the baton and the four by one came in last place. Well, at the end of it he says, well dad, well, we got to get prepared for regionals. I said, well, what do you mean regionals? He goes, well, since there wasn't enough teams, we qualified, I'm going, oh no, this isn't good. I'm not that type of dad. Forgive me if that offends, I'm not that type of dad. I'm like, you got to be kidding.
[TYLER]
You're back into it.
[CHRIS]
I'm back into it. So I'm back up at 4:30 AM again and I've got to get my attitude right and to take it into practice. But then my wife says this to me, she goes, I said, well now they got to go to regionals and they're not going to win that. She goes, whoa, wait a minute, Mr. Attitude is everything. I said, no attitude is not everything, but it's not, it's the main thing. I don't care what type of attitude they have. There is no way they're going beyond regionals because attitude can't compensate for skill, attitude can't compensate for facts. So that can be as positive as they want just isn't going to happen. So attitude is the main thing, but attitude's not everything. I love this topic.
[TYLER]
Well, I mean, dude, I love that. From the, I guess here's, what's interesting to me as a person. Especially leaders and people of all walks of life come on to teams and what they've experienced, where they've been before and their attitude can be vastly different. I found a, I was at, I think at the state fair, the Ohio state fair when I was a teenager and at the fair they sell, those graphic tees or even go into the mall and they sell these tees, t-shirts, that you can buy. On the shirt that I bought, it said, if you don't like my attitude walk away. It was just like, that was a classic teenager. Of course, my parents got mad at me about it, but I was one of those kids that, whether I had a bad attitude or I was being cocky and arrogant it rubbed people the wrong way.
That's something that I've had to realize and grow through life. You talk about positive and negative, but then there's also, I believe the attitude, especially as a leader, an organization; are you inviting people or you pushing people away? To me, that's an attitude. I think as your wife described that as like Chris, your attitude is you're pushing people away here, it's like, make the most of it. You may come in last, but what is this training? What is it going to be about? She was like, come on Chris, they have an opportunity.
[CHRIS]
Yes, but again, I think the other side of attitude too, is that people oftentimes think that attitude is all about being over the top positive. It's really not. Again, it can be a perspective when it comes to attitude, is it solution oriented in mind? So when I think about attitude, I think of it being a positive stance and a positive stance, meaning that I am going to look for what I can pull off this, or I can look for the solutions in this but it's not about being overly positive all the time. Now many would say, well, Chris, I don't believe that because every time you see me, chances are I'm smiling. Well, that's just natural wine, but it's not about being positive all the time. It's about a outlook. It's about a perspective. It's about an outreach too.
[TYLER]
As you share that, I think back to Good to Great by Jim Collins. He talks about the Stockdale paradox. As Jim Stockdale recounted through his presentations afterwards, it wasn't the people that were optimistic that lasted the longest than the pessimist or whatever. It was the realist. I think you bring that point that there's such a need I just we had on the podcast Mark Miller in his book, Smart Leadership, and the first one is confront reality. I think you can have a very positive attitude, a very real attitude about that. As a leader, man, if you're overly positive, people start to say, he's just filling us all with sunshine. Like whatever, it doesn't matter, but then no one wants to be around the pessimist, but it's this ability to bring people in and be realistic and yet see hope.
[CHRIS]
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. As a leader, that's the tango. The dance is keeping that not going one way or the other. I think John puts it best when he says that we need to be candid with care, candid with care. We need to have candor and care, candor being, we can be real with a person, but do it from a place of care. So give an example of many leaders, they come from that, the highway mentality, they come from the, well, I'm going to yell at you, cuss at you, berate you in order to motivate you in order to do that. But my philosophy has been underneath John's leadership and following John's teaching has been very simple. Real simple leadership philosophy; treat people like people and adults like adults.
I have never cussed out an individual for work in my entire career. I raised my voice at one person over my entire career. It doesn't matter what an individual is doing. Because at the end of the day, nobody's coming to work going well, I wish I could do my worst today. I'm just going to give it my worst. Now their attitude and their behavior may spawn that way. Sometimes as leaders, we want it more for them than they want them for themselves but then maybe it's time to have that candid conversation with care. Maybe this isn't for you, but you as a leader, can't want it more for the individual than they do themselves. So why stress yourself out trying to motivate them by yelling, screaming, doing everything you can? Deal with them with candor, character, adult like adult and people like people.
[TYLER]
It's really, what's funny is, and I've gone through this and talked with other friends, it's this Bobby Knight example, this drill Sergeant example of a leader. We think, oh, that's the way it should be. There's generations that came out of military service and that's what they experienced so that's what they modeled. But then there really is this example that John has bestowed in so many other leaders that are of the same, because like you got to be realistic. There's a time to confront reality and say, hey, this is what it is, but it doesn't need to be in a angry way or a berating way. It's being willing to accept that position, which I think underlining this ability to be candid and have care and not just think, oh, people are coming in to sabotage today. They just always have a bad attitude. I think there's an element there that you layered i was a curiosity to understand why. Why do you guys have the attitude you have?
[CHRIS]
Yes, and it could be something simple. It could be that they don't like the job that they're in or they see a better way to do things, but yet they're not feeling heard or they see a better way to do things, but they don't have the resources or the tools or they're just not being trained or they just don't know. You've never equipped them on how to do what it is that you're asking them to do. Or, I mean, I can go on with number of different scenarios where us as a leader have to look at ourselves first and go wait a minute, could this be me?
[TYLER]
Yes. Well, and that is ---
[CHRIS]
Could be true.
[TYLER]
Yes, that's a big part of it, is understanding, what am I doing to make this work? John has a comment that's like, are you bringing gasoline or water? Are you going to make it worse or are you going to put out the fire? I think that's that point of an attitude as a leader's like, is my attitude affecting their attitude? They're not always independent. It's like, what can I do to impact that?
[CHRIS]
Yes, absolutely. I mean, that's a hundred percent correct. So as you teach about it in the 21 Laws, that's the law of the lid. Can't go beyond the leader. So if you, as a leader, have a five attitude, well guess what the highest attitude on your team could possibly be. If it's a four, you step down the pace in everything, whether it's an attitude, whether it's in leadership, whether it's in care, whether it's in candor. It can never go beyond the lid of the leader
[TYLER]
Before you were leading what was the John Maxwell team Maxwell leadership entrepreneurial solutions, the world that you're now you had your own coaching business. You were working with leaders. I'd love to take that experience. As leaders are listening in today and here, we are in 2022 and we're on probably the cliff of what looks to be an upcoming and everything's evident recession, that's going to come from different angles. There's a lot of disparity between what leaders are dealing with today. Putting back on that hat of working with leaders, because I know you still are today, coaching and capacities, what challenges do you see that are going on today that leaders are dealing with where they either feel most ill-equipped or there's a lack of empowerment that that really are questioning? Then what's the solution for that?
[CHRIS]
What I see, and again, I've worked with hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands of leaders, whether in one-on-one coaching or group training over the past decade and what I found for the most part, it's usually that a leader doesn't know what they don't know and just don't know what they don't know and when they know better, they can do better. So that's why I loved it so much was being able to go into an organization, equip leaders with a John Maxwell content and teaching and material because now they gave us the foundation to be able to build off of. Most people develop their leadership style one of two ways, they look at a bad leader in their past and they say, well, I'm not going to lead like that one day when I become a leader or they look at a good leader and say, well, hey, I'm going to try to model that.
Then by trial and error of trying not to be the bad leader by trying to be the good leader and just going forward, they develop their management or leadership style over time. Now those are great ways to do it but what you can do in between to bridge that gap again, if you know better, you can do better, it's begin to read. It's begin to go outside of the actual training that you're getting from your organization to develop yourself as a leader, to develop yourself as a communicator, to develop yourself as an individual in order to grow. Because again, if we go back to that law that lead in the 21 Laws, your team, your organization cannot go beyond the capacity of its leadership.
So the number one issue that I see inside an organization obviously is a lack of leaders but because that is a lack of intentional planning of developing leaders, there's only two ways to get leaders in your organization. You either have to build them or you have to bring them, you have to build them or you have to bring them. Those are the only two ways. So you got to make a choice right now. There's not one organization in the plan that I ever went into and said, Chris, we've got way too many good leaders here. We don't need your help. Every organization has a deficit for leadership. But we got to build them or we got to bring them.
[TYLER]
I want to, you made me think about something and as you mentioned people develop their leadership style by two ways, they either do the opposite of what a bad leader does or they model a good leader. I think the point that stuck with me there is, and I believe that's a big part of this podcast, it's hard to tell what a good leader is and a bad leader. There's a lot of leaders that are minute because that's all we know. So we think that's good leadership when in reality it's bad, unhealthy, toxic leadership. Yet without knowing, and I think that's what replicates the cycle, to me, it's why a lot of people don't want to be leaders. They're like, I don't want to be a leader, that responsibility.
[CHRIS]
That's why it's important to get the information and from the books and things of that nature, that it can be modeled because you're 100% because in a lot of organizations, and I've been a part of organization where the manager's office, everyone called an F city, because you knew that you walked into his office and you were going to get cussed out. I mean, hands down there was, it didn't matter if you're having a good day, bad day, you walk in there, you're getting cussed out for something. Now because of his production, he was considered a good leader and now from a people perspective, terrible. That was clear from a production perspective. Well, that makes you say, well, this person's producing.
Well, maybe, I know that's not me. I know that's not how I should do it, but he's producing and so maybe I should do it this way. I was fortunate to have content from John in hand and I was learning that and I was able to separate the two and say I know this is what, looks like it's productive, but I know the foundation. I know that there's another way and I know that that's not my style. So that allowed for me to step into my own as a leader, because I had enough knowledge to be able to identify and say, hey, that's not the way that I want to lead and that's not my image of what leadership is. So in order to be better, you have to learn more and you have to do more in order to step into it.
[TYLER]
What was your experience or what did you find was the biggest barrier for leaders to, I would term it be a healthy leader? You've mentioned the guy who has the office that they call the F city, because he just screams at every this and that. There was always a reason to scream at. In your experience, working with people like that and helping them evolve, what do you feel like was their barriers or what did you see as barriers?
[CHRIS]
So when going into an organization like that, when there's obviously every organization has their own culture set. So oftentimes I would go into an organization and as long as I had buy-in from the top, so it has to start from the top, now it's not, hey, let me get some leadership training for my leaders. I don't want anything to do with this. It doesn't go inside that organization because what happens is there's a wash. I could be teaching the middle management and then if upper management is not a buy-in, not being the model, because when they're reading a book like this, the middle management, isn't going, how well am I doing this? The middle management is going, how well are you doing this? This is not what I'm getting.
So I'm when an organization doesn't start from the top down and get buy-in there, very rarely does it take inside of an organization. But if you can get the top of the organization to begin to buy into this, to be able to get more content inside them, to increase their awareness, you see a company going to explosive growth if they begin to realize that, hey, it's our duty. In order to grow this organization, it's our duty to grow and develop people, if we want the organization to grow, the profits will come. The production will come, if you decide that this is going to be the way because everything, John tells us everything, everything rises and falls on leadership,
[TYLER]
Yes, it's, and I think that process of the top-down leader, you talk about the owner, the top executive, and then all the different levels of leadership throughout that organization is if the one person who has the most influenced believes, then they've probably done some self-examination of their own leadership style and say I need to help others see a better way. I think to me, that's what you described is yes, if you're a mid-level manager, if you're someone who maybe you have people below and above and you're leading in the middle, I think you can influence for sure. We've seen examples of that and it's been displayed but it probably goes the fastest when it's coming top down through the organization and really that buy-in is like, no, we need this. This is the key. Because I think those barriers, like you said sometimes is when someone's in the middle and they're reading and they're like, man, this is the solution but you can't get buy-in. What do you do, what do you suggest to that leader?
[CHRIS]
For that leader that's stuck in the middle it's really working on yourself. So basically, we call what's called a leadership compass. I wish I just had a whiteboard right now to draw this thing out. Let's call it leadership compass. I mean, the first person that you have to lead is yourself. So as you are looking at this and you're saying, man, I really feel like I'm stuck in the middle the first question you have to ask yourself as a leader is, would I follow me? Would I follow me? If there's not a resounding yes to that question, then we've got some work to do. So the first person that you have to lead first is yourself. Then now you're in the middle. So that means that you have someone that you have to lead below you.
Now, again, they may follow you because you have what's called positional leadership. Now what that means is that they're going to listen to you because of your role, your position or your title. The true litmus test of are you actually influencing them or leading them is after they clock out, how much influence do you have over their life? If it's not very much, you're a level one leader, you're leading from position, you're not going to be able to do much there. Then we have what's called peer leadership and that's leading straight across. People that are on the exact same level with you that's a lot higher level of leadership wide because those people will follow you because they want to not because they have to. So if you're leading at that level, now you really begin to lead but then the highest level of leadership is influencing the influencer.
So that's influencing those that are above you and so when you begin to make that happen without a position or title and have that true influence. That's when you really begin to shake and bake. Those skills can be developed. John does have a book. Actually, we got one right there. We're plugging books today, apparently, but that one's best taught, The 360 Leader. The 360 Leader really talks about how to lead from each one of those positions inside of an organization. So each one of those roles requires a little bit different skill, a little bit different development in order to get influence in all of those positions.
[TYLER]
Well, that was that was great. That is something I made a lot of notes, hopefully everyone else did. I think that was an excellent way of just breaking it down and how you can get into action there wherever your position is. One thing that I mentioned to you that I wanted to tap on, I had a listener send me an email and said, "Hey, Tyler, I'd love to see more diversity in your podcast." As I was seeing that, and that comes from a an absolute heartfelt, like, yes, I want to be able to see what I can't see. One of the things that I broached with you, and again, I look around the world we're in is as much as a friend teases me, yes, I'm dark, not as dark as you, but it doesn't matter, is this disparity in our world, in race, in racial and diversity, that's become so much now the racial diversity and inclusion, equity, all those things are words that we hear.
I wanted to take some time because of the experience you've had in so many different businesses and a person of color and going through that, that I can't see. That's not a lens that I can operate in. But I'd love to take some time here and help me understand and also to see it from a very, what I would call healthy perspective because I know the world you work in, which is a healthy leadership environment to say, all right, let's navigate through what's reality and maybe what's trying to be polarizing.
[CHRIS]
Yes. Well, and Tyler, first of all, I want to lift any guilt or shame that you may have felt from that particular request. Like I know you, I know who you are, and I know you are a person value that values people, that want to multiply value with others and so I know your heart in that. The list of people that you may have had on, or may not have had on is just basically, that's your immediate peer group. That's people who you have relationship with and you're just thinking who is the best person for this, who is the best person for this that you know personally. That's okay. So I want to lift any guilt that you may have because on the flip side of it, I get the exact same messages saying, "Chris, I don't see much diversity from you." I'm going well, "Last time, I'm trying."
I think really right now our culture is in a place to where the world is really trying to divide us. It's really trying to divide us more of this, more of that and I think on all of our parts, whether it be black, whether it be white, whether it be Latino, whether it be man, whether it be woman I think that we all have this responsibility, myself included; is to just be intentional about, we all have platforms that we can platform people on. Today I really just think that it's being more intentional about who we're platforming and being intentional about going out of our way, not to just find somebody for their sake and checking a box, but to find and build qualified relationships with people that are great at what they do, be it men, women, black, white, Asian, it doesn't matter, but just being highly intentional because the more intentional in that, that we are the more reach that all of our platforms have because we're bringing the best of the best from all these different cultures. We're just going to have a greater reach and greater impact. So Tyler, I just think is about intentionality right now.
[TYLER]
You know a part of that is something that I've recently gone through and this dovetails in with all of John's work and values. When we allow that to be the deciding factor yes, man, all the rest of the stuff just works itself out.
[CHRIS]
Yes, it does.
[TYLER]
I was talking with a friend who has a, part of the round table community is people can be a part of the Impact Driven Leader round table community, and is a member of that. We were talking about this and talking about their organization and said, man, when we started to talk about the mission and vision of the organization and the values that we hold, all of a sudden, the people that we had really become a part of the team, started to look different. It was good and it was healthy but if they, we all held the same values and in those skills of the job they weren't as paramount as long as we had the skills and values. So I come back to this idea of if we start looking at the outside and always using that bias, whichever way it may be, whether it's, oh, I have to be intentionally to without reason include, because now I check the boxes, you mentioned which see so much, or the other way, then we're not focusing on the values.
[CHRIS]
Yes, that's correct.
[TYLER]
And if we focus on the values, man, that diversity becomes very, I would say healthy.
[CHRIS]
It becomes very healthy and it becomes explosive in growth when the values are there, because it could be great. It doesn't matter who I work with if there's not a value match. That relationship just isn't going to grow anyway. I mean, hands down, they could have the greatest skills in the world. It could be the greatest communicator. Look, we've been around some of the best communicators on the planet, some of the great speakers, they've written incredible books, and then you meet them and all of a sudden you say, Ooh, I like their books. Not a match. Even though they might be big for the platform or big for the thing, it always comes down to values. So I love your focus being on that because at the end of the day that's, what's going to make everything work. And when we can include the values and then the values first, and then other things after that, it's a real winner. It's a real winner.
[TYLER]
So I mean, this, again, along this frame and line, if someone's listening in, and maybe they're in that level of leadership where they're acquiring a lot of talent, how would you, as we just frame, how would you encourage them to go forth and establish their corporation saying, hey, we need to have more diversity? What would you say to empower them through that process?
[CHRIS]
Wow, that's a powerful question. When you say, hey, when an organization's going, man, we need more diversity. like, if you find yourself in that position, like we already in the hole. If you're stressing more I need more diversity. But because you may find yourself saying that for the wrong reason. I mean, don't say it just for the sake of saying we need more diversity so that we can have this certain look again. It goes back to a value thing. I mean, do you actually value diversity? Because if you are saying, hey, we need diversity, you want to check a box, get someone in, but yet you don't truly value diversity. That's not going to last long anyway. That's going to go by the wayside because you just check the box. So if that's the intent, you got to make sure that first of all, you value diversity and then be intentional that when you do go looking for those diverse candidates that, hey, there is a value match there first, you start there, everything else can be built around that. But if there's a mismatch, just not going to work, just not going to work.
[TYLER]
One of the things I wrote down when going through that is man, it's probably pretty powerful to define diversity.
[CHRIS]
Yes, yes.
[TYLER]
We have this assumption if we have an organization that diversity means that there's every creed, race orientation, whatever, that's diversity. It's like, well, I mean, to me, that's a possibility, but I could sit here and say diversity is much. I grew up on a farm in Northeast Ohio. If we talk about, you grew up St. Louis, Missouri, that's a there's similarity, but there's a lot of diversity there. I mean, it has nothing to do with male, female, black, white, it doesn't matter. That's a tremendous amount of diversity. And I think the other point there is again, when we ask these questions is what is diversity going to bring us that we don't have now? I think diversity is absolutely a requirement in organizations. It's the only way you can see the truth but then I think if a leader is saying, hey, we need diversity, but they don't define what that's going to bring to the organization, it seems to me
[CHRIS]
Just checking the boxes
[TYLER]
Well, is checking the boxes. It's like playing pin the tail on the donkey. Somebody puts you out in the middle of the field and gives you a Thumbtack with a tail on it and said, go find the donkey. Like, I have no idea where I'm going to go. You got to at least point the person in the right direction where there's a wall and the donkey and the famous game. To me, that's where some of those questions that you said, the intentionality and why do we need more diversity, what is actual diversity? Man, that starts to actually help build a value base in an organization? Yes,
[CHRIS]
Yes, it does. It does. Like you said, diversity could be amongst a lot of things. The first thing in diversity we often think of is color, but that could be in women, that could be in all types of perspectives. That could be in personality types. I mean, think about, because you attract who you are, not what you want. Let's just start there. When we talk about the law of magnetism from 21 Laws, you attract who you are, not what you want. So just naturally, if you are a laid-back leader, chances are you're going to attract laid back people. If you are a wild leader, you're going to attract wild leaders. That's just what the organization's going to look like. You attract who you are, not what you want.
So again, it goes back to that intentionality of going, hey, what do I want, why do I want that? Because that can also be a mistake. I think about, one of the biggest mistakes that I made as a young sales manager was thinking that I had to have someone opposite of me. So I was a real consistent, I'm going to be here early, I'm going to follow the script. I'm going to do this, I'm going to outwork everybody and that's primarily what my team looked like, pretty stable people that were just in it. But then there was this wild team. They were high producers. I mean, they were just wild and I'm going well, I've got to diversify. I've got to get some of these wild guys that I know are just reckless and responsible and I've got to get some of those guys on my team to balance me out.
I tell you what, I got these guys on the team, and I was bonded to the philosophy of you need to hire people that are gifted differently than you now. Here's the mistake that I made and here's how you cure that. It goes back to values. Hire people that are gifted differently than you, but share the same values and vision. Hire people that are gifted differently than you, but you share the same values and vision. Again, that now allowed for me because they were gifted differently, they had different values and vision. Like their number one objective was not to get to work on time. It was to get closer they possibly could. It was to take the longest lunch break. We had different values and vision, but when I hired people that were gifted differently, but that had different values and vision, then things begin to work.
When it comes back to hiring from diversity as well too it is, if I've got one word out of it it's the intentionality. Oftentimes, when we're hiring, we're hiring from our core family, friends, family members, who you know that needs a job. That's how a lot of small organizations are built. Or who do you know that's in this industry? Oftentimes, it's who we are, not what we want. So being intentional in that hiring process saying, hey, look, I'm looking for Latin American women that may be qualified for this job that have the same values and visions than me. I'm looking for African American that has the same values and vision skills. I don't know any, who do you know that I should know Tyler? I don't know anyone from the country, Tyler that is Asian. What Asian from the country that you grew up near you do you know?
Again, it's been intentional and we don't, obviously we live in a world today if I were to give a specific request like that, like the Asian country person, I'd have a lawsuit, I'd have a lawsuit. But it's truly being intentional though about what it is that we're looking for and the skillset that we're looking for and going look, I don't even know anyone like that and admitting and saying, hey, look, we don't know any black people. Who do we know that we could introduce us to some more qualified black people? Who do we know that could introduce us to some more qualified Latin American women and to start building, nurture those relationships, but it's all about building relationships one way or the other.
[TYLER]
I think you've made a point there that I think is, it came up at about an hour and a half ago in a Zoom. We were talking about conflict, totally off subject but I think it can be in this situation, it could be very conflicting. And you made a comment there's like, I don't know anyone. Now that could be perceived as a bias, but yet I believe if you admit that bias, like, hey, I may have this unintentional bias because I just don't know, once I accept that and express it, then you can work from it as opposed to, if you try to hide it, you're trying to like, I don't know. It's just, this is the bias that maybe we have as an organization.
Like you said I would imagine if I had an organization that was in a predominantly black area, our organization would have a much higher rate of people that are black. That's just the way it is. If we look at it to say, well, yes, because if we look at our entire hiring base, that's who the people are, that's who the people that we know from our family functions and church and high school and whatever else. It's like that's what we're going to have and I think the, like you said, with intentionality, if we can accept and acknowledge the bias, and I'm not talking about an ism here, I'm talking about a bias. And just understand sometimes that happens. That's the goggles that you live in and you have to be willing to say, okay, I accept it. With intentionality to say, what can we do to make this different but yet hold onto the values and those values, that match our mission and our vision. Man, I think as a leader, I think as an organization, if you put that first and foremost, you're going to find a lot of diversity where you didn't expect it.
[CHRIS]
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely, absolutely. That's huge. That's huge.
[TYLER]
I think that makes a healthy organization,
[CHRIS]
Yes, it does. It does. It does but it starts with that consideration. It starts with that intentionality and we become a better place. We become a better place.
[TYLER]
Chris, this has been fun. I appreciate it. Thanks for your time, man. I'm excited to see, you spend time with you, thankful for the work that you do with Maxwell and really upleveling leadership everywhere in the world with what you're doing. So I appreciate the time, man.
[CHRIS]
Hey honor and privilege to be here today. Look forward to seeing you soon.
[TYLER]
Thanks man.
[TYLER]
To wrap up that episode, that fun conversation, Chris was energetic, happy, always just excited for life. That's why he talks about attitude and he has that zeal. It's a person that I want to be around and lead with. Chris and I are similar ages as a lot of you listening in possibly and it's this bridge in leadership that I think is our great opportunity. We talked about what does a bad leader look like? What is a good leader like? Well, I'm hoping that this podcast, that's my intention, that this podcast is helping to identify what good leadership is and what bad leadership is and bad leaders can get healthy and if you're a good leader to stay on the path of health.
That's why I want to have this podcast. That's what I'm hoping to do with the community, the Impact Driven Leader, community, where iron sharpens iron, where we learn in layers, we help each other evolve and grow. I'd love to invite you to be a part of that. There's a new Impact Driven Leader round table cohort, starting this summer. Love for you to inquire about possibly joining that group. I know there's a seat at the table for you.
But one last thing that I want to share in this conversation that Chris and I had it's answering these two questions. Why do we need diversity? What is diversity? Now I'm a believer. I think we need to diversity. Like I shared in this episode, I grew up on a farm in Northeast Ohio and pretty much most places that I go there's a diversity. In the career that I have today, I don't talk to a lot of people that grew up on farms or still engaged art. That brings an entire level of diversity. I grew up in a different part of the country than I live. That brings diversity, but yet it's not absolute. It's also this idea why do we need more diversity in organization? We can identify that man, that we could go after something that's going to be a benefit. At the same point, if we define what is diversity, man, that can really help us grow positively in a healthy manner and explosive manner. As Chris talked about, as opposed to just checking those boxes, thinking if we check the box, man, that's the solution. I've never seen a situation where checking the box was the solution that led to the most growth, the most development, the most impact.
I hope you got value out of this episode today. Thanks for watching. Thanks for listening. Till next time, have a good one.
