Podcast Transcription
[TYLER DICKERHOOF]
Welcome back to the Impact Driven Leader Podcast. This is your host, Tyler Dickerhoof. So glad you're here. If you're a subscriber, glad you're listening in this week. If someone shared this episode with you, if you saw it somewhere somehow, thanks for listening. I truly hope that you get value from today's conversation with Dr. Oleg Kovalov, excuse me, with a name like Dickerhoof you would think that I could spit that off my tongue, Dr. Oleg Konovalov. So excited to have the conversation with him. He recently wrote the book, the Vision Code. Dr. Oleg Konovalov is a master in the area of vision and leadership and connection, and has done tremendous amounts of work in a lot of different areas.
I was excited to be introduced to his book and thoroughly enjoyed it. This is one of the things that I love about the idea of vision. We talk about this today, and I want to share it with you. Maybe you've heard me talk about vision before. Some of the other books that are referred to, the Vision Driven Leader by Michael Hyatt is one of them, Visioneering by Andy Stanley. This is what I find, Dr. Oleg and I talk about this is vision is so misunderstood. People think a vision is just a statement that goes up on the wall. Oleg talks a lot about that, and that's a viewpoint that we share. Yet as we go through this conversation and elements that we build on, for any decision people make, any decision that they want better, any decision for change, there's first a stimulus and there's a response to that. But then for that vision to really launch into something else, there has to be massive commitment and a bold decision to make it happen.
It isn't done whimsically. It isn't done just matter of factly. It's commitment and full responsibility. He talks a lot about that. We'll touch more on the end. Again, thank you for being here. Appreciate you being a part of the audience. One of the things that I love, and this randomly happens, where I'll be in conversation with someone and they'll share a nugget from these podcasts. I love that. I appreciate that. If you get value from these podcasts, I'd love for you to share that with me, one, so I can share it with the guests, the authors of these books. What value are you getting? I'd love to share with them and give them that reward. So, again, thanks for listening in. I know you're going to get tremendous value from today's episode. I'll catch you at the end.
[TYLER]
Oleg, thank you so much for joining me today. As I said in the opening man, one, the timing of your book and being brought into my life, you're writing it but also the book that you have, The Vision Code. I love the topic as I've grown and learned so much in leadership, one area that I find is so confusing to people and so confusing, I think beyond people to organizations, is this idea of vision. You do such a great job of interviewing titans in business and leadership and really to the title, codifying what vision really means in organizations, in business, but more importantly, what it means to the people in those organizations. That's my first thought I want to kick off with
[DR. OLEG KONOVALOV]
Tyler, thank you very much for inviting me through this conversation because this topic is not just a matter what I do. It's my passion. It's my life. I love it because it makes so much difference, you know, people hiding behind the statements, can you capitalize a mission statement? No. What is your clear promise on which your leadership will be judged? No, because it's just a statement. It's an empty promise. But look at this from a single point of view. Young people going to get married, they're standing in front of a priest or in a mayor's office or whatever, and they're promising in that moment, they think, would you consider to be happy forever together? Yes, yes, yes, yes. Because they've promised to. But if they really see themselves both to be happy in that marriage, they both have a vision for each other. That's a huge difference. The same in organization. We want to be number one bank in that county. Man, who cares? I want my money to be in a great, caring professional bank. Whether you're number one or number 31, I don't care. I'm not looking at your rating. I'm looking at your quality of a space that, where I would benefit.
[TYLER]
Let's do this, because I think it could help myself. I'm asking a question. I want to know you're expert in this area, so I want to know, and maybe there's other people
[DR. OLEG]
No, I'm, oh, vision is such a thing that you always love.
[TYLER]
Well, yes, where did the idea of an organization, of business, hey, let's put together a vision statement? Where did that come from? Where did that really start an organization to where then it became, well, I have to throw it up on the wall because if I don't, then I'm not an actual legit business.
[DR. OLEG]
I don't have an answer, I have a session because it's difficult to trace back into history, know who puts some statement
[TYLER]
Who invented the wheel, right?
[DR. OLEG]
Who invented the wheel? We don't know the name of the guy. But look, marketing guys would be saying, without such a catchy model, who wouldn't be recognized? People start believing that that motor replacing the actual vision but it's not functionable. Again, can you leave it as a legacy? No, but vision you can. Vision is a great asset. You could leave it as a legacy to your kids, to the next generation of employees. Mission? If you change the clock on the wall tomorrow, who would care? No one. What stands behind it? Because Nike shoes runs better today, tomorrow it would be some another model. Nike will change. Nothing will change. But vision, I started thinking about vision years ago, because for me it was important to understand. Hold on guys. When we're talking about strategy, where this strategy ends up, where it fleets because strategy without vision is a bridge to nowhere, costly, and misleading.
It's a bridge to, off a cliff. That means it should be that space where that strategy leads. I was taking that from this person, also, for me was important. Where am I? Now who am I going to be? Life is not a place where we live. Life is a path we take, therefore, where that path goes, where it leads. Therefore, it was important to understand. But organization's buying the simplest thing. Imagine a board of directors, and I've witnessed that, myself in my history, guys are sitting to, well, we need to have a vision. We will be the brightest guys and let's put it, and I'm just saying, guys, hundred dollars. Get a blogger. He will come up with a smooth sentence. Believe me. Would it be a vision? No. Why doing the same thing? Vision is a space, it's aspiration for a future, how we're, who we're going to be. It's a collective agreement but how the future would look like and how we would live there.
[TYLER]
One of the ---
[DR. OLEG]
It's a very difficult statement.
[TYLER]
Well, I mean, as I mentioned to you as I've learned about vision the last couple years, and it's helped me identify and really differentiate, understand vision compared to mission and purpose and there's a lot of co-mingling of what those words are. I think many different leaders and organizations don't recognize the difference. As I've shared with people, and I want to hear your rebut to this, retort to this, to me, a vision is like a two-hour long movie, whereas a mission is just a trailer. So it's like, if I'm going to tell you about the latest, greatest movie and I tell you, oh, it's a good movie, there's a few action scenes or whatever else, that to me is much like the mission. It's like the short and dirty whereas the vision is, let me break it down, scene by scene. There's all these different characters and there's these narratives and in what this world then looks like through it. To me, that's how I describe it. Is that appropriate? What do you feel about when I say that?
[DR. OLEG]
Well, in general, yes, I would agree with that. For instance, if we look at the movie Avatar, we'll all allow it, it's brilliant. You must have a vision for such a movie. What could be a statement, whatever you'll put on it would be a statement relevant because it's off. But it'll be called reflecting might be some an episode. But I would be looking at it from very different angle. I wrote an article about this for Zero Wolf Magazine, Banking Your Vision. Can you capitalize your statement? No. Can you capitalize your vision? Yes. Vision helps to increase your capitalization, by about 30 times on average.
[TYLER]
Interesting.
[DR. OLEG]
But I know one thing, vision demands big thinking. So think big. You must be prepared to act big. Those leaders who are hiding behind statements, they simply don't prepare. They don't because hey, if they would come to investors or to their shareholders and they would say, yes, we are becoming the greenest company, would they care?
[TYLER]
No. Honestly, do the customers care? I don't think so.
[DR. OLEG]
No. Exactly. You know where Ryan is? There is this famous airline I was flying recently last week. They don't say that you'll get the most comfortable seats. They think, hey, we would be the cheapest board delivery company. Cool. They delivered their promise. They are on time, maybe not the most comfortable, but they do what they promised. That is a great approach. If you look at the most greatest movies as you started, do they promise you the most exciting moments? No. They think, we will talk about such a personality or about such an event. That's what they reveal and you will see what you want to see.
[TYLER]
Yes.
[DR. OLEG]
Because here comes a point. Vision comes when you're conscious awareness of a problem. you want to solve for a benefit of others, which is big. So it's about value that we create for others today, tomorrow, and in the future.
[TYLER]
So, yes, I think from that, and so much of your book focuses on the leader's responsibility to vision and how they share that, how they constructed their responsibility to it. This is a leadership podcast and I think again, a leader's opportunity to share a vision is what actually influences people. It helps them gain direction towards what are we trying to accomplish. Is that something you'd agree on or where do you think a leader's responsibility in there is?
[DR. OLEG]
Tyler, this is simple. My research revealed the shocking truth. Less than 0.1% of modern leaders have vision, more or less they're blind. They're not leading people into the future. They ever talk, you as a manager who takes care of the present, or you are a leader because a leader is responsible for the future and how people will get there. If you don't know, where do you lead people who you are, leaders look, oh, today is quite trendy to talk about consensus. It's wrong. We're looking for consensus when we don't know where to go. We just, those leaders become priests.
[TYLER]
Well, we want to be liked.
[DR. OLEG]
I don't care about priests. No, I'm leading people. Therefore, it's quite a firm decision and not many people are prepared for this, therefore leadership still demands a lot of shaping.
[TYLER]
Sure. Well, I think the piece that I pick up there is the ability to lead people there is creating a pathway that even in their uncomfort or even in their desire not to change, they are willing to go.
[DR. OLEG]
Exactly. Because again, you can't please everyone but you're saying, hey, we better go through that difficulty or some challenges but we'll get there. Otherwise, we wouldn't grow. We can't get better.
[TYLER]
No, no. In your book you have, you break down the code and there's four pieces of that. I'd love for you to walk through that, because to me it really helped, one, the steps for a leader or the steps for someone that's like, I want something different. I know there's a better way to really create this vision that can people can be invited to. So I'd love for you to walk through that for us.
[DR. OLEG]
The first phase is clarity of creation because conscious as problem we want to solved. For us is you can't get a vision because you have vicious or you have your ambitious. I want to be a billionaire. Who cares? What's the value for people? What you would create. But it should be so sharp and so focused and then you will come up with a solution as a result. Here comes a bit of a challenge because many leaders talk about problems, visionaries talk about solutions. Vision is a solution to those problems. It's one thing. Then you definitely need to grow as a leader, as a visionary leader, because vision is greater than you or me and you must grow yourself to lead that great substance and of course, help your team to grow because you can't be a visionary on your own. Of course, it must be really viable because vision is pragmatic. It must be viable in terms of simplicity, scalability, stimulus. What is the value? Who takes responsibility? How simple is that? How relevant or grounded it is to a reality? Of course, where is the passion for that vision? Because vision is full of emotional power. You remember, you said, and you said, you must, a leader must be good at influencing people. The best influencer is someone who makes others the co-owners of his mission.
[TYLER]
Yes, exactly.
[DR. OLEG]
I'm not influencing, I'm making others the co-owners of that future
[TYLER]
Partners per se.
[DR. OLEG]
Of course. And of course, you must be great at communicating it. Of course, you must be super brilliant at executing it, so acting and vitalizing. When you walk people through those processes, and of course with all those being field-tested and so far, this approach already been in 33 countries and very successful, believe me. It helps people to rock it up.
[TYLER]
You mentioned something there. You stress it in your book and I appreciate it tremendously that the difficulties sometimes in the, well, the difference for leaders to really step into that visionary ability and role is the transition from identifying problems to focusing on and really communicating solutions. It's like you have to know the problem in order to find the right solution but it's like, great, once we've done that, great, let's talk about all the solutions. Here's a question that I have and I simply wonder, and going back to that point of if people don't buy into the vision, if they don't become partners, you're really not going to lead them anywhere. You're not going to accomplish anything. Is the transition from identifying all the problems to accepting the solutions the great pivot point for buy-in?
[DR. OLEG]
Here's a few things which must be on that prescription list. People need to see the benefits for themselves. As they are co-owners of fusion, they must be able to contribute to it, let's people talk, let's see what they could bring. Because of course, not all the offered solutions would be the appropriate, but at least give people a chance to contribute to it. So we really have two benefits for people involvement and contribution. Every solution must be much greater than a problem. It's not scaled or balanced. Solution equals problem. No, because your vision must be greater
[TYLER]
Than your current.
[DR. OLEG]
Then it'll attract people without even you opening a mouse and people will get to it because it's amazing. It's not just like, oh, I promise everyone on the earth would be happy. But it's something that people would say, yes, it would stay relevant for it. Yes, go ahead. It's important and they already will be attached to it. So it's already sweet, a sort of ingredient. I never heard, I never see such a thing, little vision.
[TYLER]
Yes.
[DR. OLEG]
Vision is always of enormous scale, and it always attract.
[TYLER]
It's the ability to engage, to accomplish the almost unaccomplishable, but with the collaboration of others, oh, I could see that. There's another segment in your book that we get into the, there's two factors that I really saw. We talk about caviar, the different pieces of the process but I want to jump past that and really spend some time talking about the 15 commandments that you wrote about. I say that because I think by breaking some of those down, and as I read it, it helps identify this idea of, oh, where can I aspire as a leader, meaning where are the areas where I'm missing out on influence because I'm not attuning to these areas that are maybe natural my skillset. If I'm an analytic or strategic person, I can still have this massive vision and invite people to buy into it. So if you wouldn't mind that we spent a little bit of time there.
[DR. OLEG]
Brilliant. Because initially what I think in one room with those global visionaries was important to observe what makes them different. It's not about they are efficient or they're sharp or they adjust No, we all known this, hold on, what's going on? For instance, one of the elements on every book page, on every screen we could see time management. Time management is for low rank clerks, managers. Vision is energy, people management is energy. It's all about energy management. What are you managing? Time or energy? Energy, what gives you quality, best ideas, best actions, everything, but we all thought to devote our time without thinking what energy starts, how good we are at delivering solutions in a simple manner. It's not about talking little, it's about having very structured thoughts. If your thoughts are well structured and you clearly know what you're talking about, you will be able to deliver it as simple solutions.
[DR. OLEG]
But unfortunately, we're taught to write long articles, long messages, long stuff, and therefore it's everything. So many watery books, so many watery articles but if your mind is really structured, the sorts are structured, and therefore your solutions would be structured and simple, you would be able to deliver it within like a minute. Simple. But most important, those 15 commandments or 15 trades, they all can be developed. It's not about being super gifted. No, you can't develop them. Some maybe taking it longer time but that's about knowing how you could shift your mindset towards the future.
[TYLER]
There was one of them that I really, to me it's number five, the visionary is at peace with change. As I think about that, I think that is a, it becomes to a point where a visionary is like, I understand the value of change and what it leads. Again, I look at this from the perspective of how can I lead and influence others? To me, the solution to the angst of change is I'm going to somewhere better. I see a greater promise than where I'm at now, that the pain of change is worth. To me, the visionary that's able to help people see that is what allows them to lead people into that change. Would you agree?
[DR. OLEG]
Tyler, some years ago, I have spent a bit of time at sea on a fishing track in the North Atlantic. Every change is a bit of a storm. Of course, I have started myself facing storm five, oh, feels sick and then my body adjusted a bit six, seven, getting better. You're working out, it's okay. When facing 11, which is really, really strong storm, you believe in God and Amen. Because you're scared as shit but then you're learning how to go through such a storm. So such a tremendous change. Then I realized that I love storms and I love to be on a deck and commanding like on a surfboard. Change for many is looking at the storm from shore, from a shoreline, oh yes, that's a tough, oh yes, it's windy. Yes, we better get better dressed. But if you are leader, you must get people into that epicenter of that storm to be in command of it. Then you are really in control of it. That is quite important. Therefore, if you're calm, you are riding those waves and where you go people are confident with you.
[TYLER]
Here's how I would, thank you for sharing that because what it gave me is even in the midst of uncertainty, the leader who has clarity by taking people into the storm, this is the storm we're in, and guess what, we're riding the waves and you know what, we're going through it. But yet when you're in it's almost like you're a part of it to where you're like, I can understand the churning. I can value the churning and knowing it's going to bring that result, whether, say you're sailing from the Midland that, hey what, by going through the storm, those winds and waves are going to propel me to where I want to go.
[DR. OLEG]
Exactly, exactly. Therefore, you're calm, you are really enjoying it
[TYLER]
Because you have the ---
[DR. OLEG]
You're not a victim of that change. You're a commander of that change
[TYLER]
Yes, because the clarity of the vision of what we're trying to do, what we're trying to accomplish, where we're going to, the new and different world.
[DR. OLEG]
Yes, exactly and promising people some a smooth ride. Well, ---
[TYLER]
Those are the rides at Disney World that no one wants to ride. Other than if you're like a two- or three-year-old, you're like, oh, okay, that ride was, eh. It's the rides that you're like, I don't know what's going to happen next.
[DR. OLEG]
Of course.
[TYLER]
But yet that you're in a way, and one of the, this is totally off, but it's a conversation. That's how things lead. You talk about the comfort is the greatest, one of the greater antagonists to a vision. It's a way to describe that, it's like when people are comfortable, they aren't looking for a different vision. They're just complacent. What I wonder there though is in the midst of discomfort, if safety, going back to we're on the boat and we have uncertainty about where are the waves, where the storm's going to take us, but we're safe because we're clear in why we're there and what we're doing. To me that's the, you can have discomfort, but in an organization, especially with a leader, if I feel safe that I've bought in and we're going the right direction, I'm all in. Let's go.
[DR. OLEG]
I would link it to one of the triggers for people to start creating vision because it's not about, yes, there are few reasons why vision is important. One of the most powerful reasons is people are not happy, are not satisfied with the present. They're saying, hey, hey, hey, something goes on. I need to develop or create something better or change life or change how we do business. That's the triggers for people to start creating a vision as a means of breaking out of unsatisfactory, present. What does mean? We are all comfortable, even in unsatisfactory present, because we know how to sync within such environment, how to act within environment, whether it's good or not bad, but we're just like, we're settled. But the soon we start thinking, hey, we need to change something, that means we are prepared to leave that comfort zone. Comfort zone sucks in. It's not about you getting less physically strong. You stop using your brain, your mind goes numb. It's dying.
[TYLER]
So let me ask you this, does the decision in that case, the decision there has to be a better way come before or after the vision?
[DR. OLEG]
No, the first is a decision. Because to have a vision is a bold decision. Because what's the difference between decisions and the choice? Choice doesn't assume commitment or responsibility. The decision is a commitment and responsibility. I decide that I will commit myself to my bold vision, and I'm taking full responsibility. It's like, okay, you're going to be married and you're engaging a beautiful woman and you're saying, "Hey, I will take, I will commit to you for an entire life, and I'm taking responsibility for our family." The same, that's about vision, decision first. Because if you'll see a scale of a great vision, you'll be scared very much. Then it would be too, you better create something great, big, really prepared.
[TYLER]
So with that massive level of commitment, because, I have this bold vision and I'm going to attain to it and stepping back in this that I had to make the decision there is a better way. I start to seek that and then really start to develop that vision, what is possible. When I see that, then I commit to it. I'm bold. I'm going to go and to again go right before that sequence though. I'm thinking about a leader and if I'm sharing my vision with you Oleg, and you're sitting here and we've identified you're just content like it could be better. I don't know a better way and I'm trying to elicit, buy into my vision, as a leader, where do I need to express my vision so that way the decision for you to buy into mind, to be complimentary, which that means you have to have a vision for your own life. To me, that is what happens is it's not only the leader has a vision, but everyone that is engaged with that leader has either a complimentary or their own vision where they're doing something different than what they are. I'm wondering, where does that, where do those seeds start to fit in because it all connects in my mind?
[DR. OLEG]
The critical element of vision is stimulus, is showing people what's the value for them in my vision. But stimulus assumes the response. We know that because that means you'll be immediately able to realize, okay, if I'm responding immediately, yes, Tyler, I was, man, I love it, just like, give me the details, but I'm on with you on board. I'll just tell my wife that I'm not coming back home. I'm with you. Here's the point, that response must be very quick. If people are not responding, that means they don't see a value for themselves. An element of steams is enjoyment whilst we're doing it. It's not a slave ship. It's not rowing without result. People must see, hey, there's value for others. I'm talking about employees first.
[TYLER]
Yes.
[DR. OLEG]
They love to do this because it's a great stuff for people with everything. Also we are really enjoying creating it because without that enjoyment, people will feel like being punished for the sake of fathers. When you put those things together, you immediately see in practical terms, you remember we started this conversation about different vision and mission no, mission will define your market space. When you have a clear stimulus, you could identify your market niche, the size of your niche, because it'll indeed, it'll define your market capitalization where a mission can't do this. Because you see, hey, there's a stimulus, and so many people respond. That means that's your market space.
[TYLER]
I think, to wrap this, to come back around as we understand that stimulus and what affects that stimulus, the ability for a leader, the ability for someone that's creating change, you look at the examples that you have in the book, and there's so many of them that the opportunity to define and communicate and elicit others into that vision because they identify that niche that you mentioned and that then creates the opportunity for saying, all right, this is who it applies to. Those two things only move forward when ---
[DR. OLEG]
More or less good, simply if you're good at identifying that value and solution that you create for people, you are not communicating your vision or how good you are at work. You're communicating that value and people are buying.
[TYLER]
As a result.
[DR. OLEG]
It makes your life much bigger. How much of Tesla adverts have you seen so far?
[TYLER]
I don't know if I've ever seen one, to be honest.
[DR. OLEG]
Exactly. More, it might be, but I never saw neither myself. Therefore, people see the value for themself, even just seeing this car passing by on the streets. Good one.
[TYLER]
Yep. I want that. It's not the, it's the, again, it comes back to the feeling of the impact of the vision, whatever that product deliver, product or service delivered. The feeling I have, that's what motivates people. It's not the metrics and the figures. I think that's where I want to connect it to this, this idea of what you have as the caviar, because I think that's what makes it come alive. It's that I'm just going to read through it, Claire. It's the clarity, it's the ability for others, it is the viability that actually makes sense. It's the influence, the act in the right revitalization when you do that with a vision is what, what Tesla did. That's what it is. It's so alive. It's so clear. It's so tangible for people to grab. Yet it's recycling because it continues to live on. It's just not a fleeting one time. They're like, oh, now I want more. Where do I go get it? It's perpetuating.
[DR. OLEG]
I would put it in simply, for instance with all thousands of startups these days, yes. For them, they're jumping on a product. Oh, have a great product. We love it. Who? You love it. What about people? You never talk to people. But if you, so that those tests and things like that, you'll see that you are really creating something incredibly valuable and it's investible and people would love to join a team. So you'll take off the ground fairly quickly and very fairly successfully. It's not about just like presentation or pitch desk. It's very different. It's a very different ballgame. Yes.
[TYLER]
Well, to me, the leaders, the organizations which ultimately can become the managers that just focus on going through the motions. Okay, this is what I need to have in my presentation. They don't spend any time understanding the nuance of the niche. Like you said, what that real vision is, are always going to find themselves. Why didn't we do more?
[DR. OLEG]
Ooh, the realization, it's about more, more, adding more value, adding more value, growing, growing, growing, growing. Don't forget, Starbucks started with one coffee shop. North face, it's this famous sports brand. I was chatting to Hub Club, the founder, real founder of the North Face. He bought two little sports shops years ago, and he created the North Face, which is an incredible brand now, and was running for 25 years out of nothing. You're creating something huge. Here comes an interesting book. When you have a clear vision, you need little resources because you, when you don't know where to go, you need a lot of resources and they're wasted.
[TYLER]
Yes, yes.
[DR. OLEG]
McDonalds started with one.
[TYLER]
Yes, and again, each of those had a vision of it can be better. This is how it's better. Let me go through all the ways and facets of why it's better. That's what motivates and gets people to buy in. It's not the, well, I have the product, service, and tool to deliver. It's like, no, tell me how life is going to be better and get me excited about that and enjoy, as you said, enjoy while doing it.
[DR. OLEG]
The best lesson I have learned, or one of the best lessons, it's not about what vision I create, it's about how this vision impacts me. Because in a great sense, it's a journey where I grow all the time. I'm making my vision greater, and my vision makes me great.
[TYLER]
That's what keeps it alive. Oleg, thank you so much. I thoroughly I've enjoyed this conversation. Your book does such a great job of walking through all the things that we discussed, and to me, it really helps enable a leader move from the place of I want to, oh, this is how I can, and to me, that all centers around vision. Again, thank you so much.
[DR. OLEG]
Thank you. Thank you, Tyler. Thank you.
[TYLER]
As Oleg and I talked about vision is, as I review my notes here, closing this episode, there's a couple factors that I think are imperative for leaders to really gather and understand they are the captain of that ship. Their choice to, even in massive uncertainty, to be clear with their vision and say, this is where we're going. We may be in the middle of the storm. It may be change, but yet I have such clarity that the people around me, that the path that we're on is the right path mean. To me that that brings conviction for people to adhere to it. Like he said, it's not the best resources that develop companies. It's the best vision. It's the leaders that are able to share that vision with others, get them to buy in, to make the commitment, to take ownership in that vision themselves.
Because when the vision isn't clear, you're can have all the resources in the world and people are left, eh, what does that mean? That's what I really gathered in it, stressed so much on me. It's like, where am I going to be better and different? What does that look like? How is that going to impact me and then that process of continual redevelopment? Here's the last piece. People will only engage and impart in a vision, the processes of making that vision a reality when there's enjoyment while doing it. The lack of enjoyment, people are going to look around and say, ah, is this place for me? A lot of different factors that I've talked about in the last few weeks, few months of episodes here, is the ability to have safety. Oleg and I talked about that, is there has to be comfort, not comfort, excuse me. There has to be safety in the midst of discomfort.
That safety comes from the leader. That safety comes from the leader of having empathy, connecting, being able to share the vision in such a way people are like, yes, I'm on the right ship. Hurricanes all around us. You know Gale Force wins. It it's tumultuous. For people right now, you're probably living those things, but I'm going to share this, as a leader that's trying to create a better vision, a place where we have healthy leaders that are able to man the ship, to be captains and say, you're in the right place, we're go in the right direction. This storm is just going to help us get there. It's going to push us in the right direction so that way we can realize our vision. Man, that's the stuff that excites me. That's what excites me as a podcast host. That's what excites me as someone developing a community and a way for people to develop their leadership ability and I hope you're excited by that too.
That's why you're hopefully in this audience or you decide to share this with someone else. Again, I thank you for that. I want you to continue to interact with the Impact Driven Leader community. You can be part of the book club and you can be even, subscribe and join our round table where each week we read different books. We go through some of these lessons that Oleg shared today and really develop it, get better. It's that experiential learning that Fel Hawk talked about in his episode, in our conversation that I think is imperative for a leader to grow. Again, thanks for being here. Till next time, have a good one.
