IDL31 Season 1: 4 Dimensions of Extraordinary Leadership with Jenni Catron
Do you explain the important decisions that you make about the company to your team? How is clarity integral to effective leadership? How can we get more women into leadership?
I am so excited to share today’s guest with you. Jenni Catron and I had such a wonderful conversation. When I read about her, all I wanted to do was sit and have a coffee with her. We had an hour-long conversation and I am sitting with a pile of notes. I’ve done a lot of research trying to find out about Jenni before the show and she shared things in this episode that I don’t think she has ever shared anywhere before. I can’t wait for you to listen!
Jenni Catron is a leadership coach, author and speaker.
Her passion is to lead well and to inspire, equip and encourage others to do the same. She speaks at conferences and churches nationwide, seeking to help others develop their leadership gifts and lead confidently in the different spheres of influence God has granted them. As Founder and CEO of The 4Sight Group, she consults organizations on leadership, team culture and organizational health.
Jenni is the author of several books including Clout: Discover and Unleash Your God-Given Influence and The 4 Dimensions of Extraordinary Leadership. She loves a fabulous cup of tea, great books, learning the game of tennis and hiking with her husband.
Visit her website. Connect on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn.
In this episode we discuss:
Equip your team to understand your decisions
Clarity in leadership
Leadership is not a solo sport
EQUIP YOUR TEAM TO UNDERSTAND YOUR DECISIONS
As a leader you are constantly looking forward and making decisions regarding the future of your employees and the business, while you are moving the company in the direction where you think it will thrive. In this, you need to involve your employees to a degree.
“You got to be able to handle when they’re shooting rockets at you because they don’t understand, and to say “it’s okay, bring it on because all of those are good questions that are probably going to help me as a leader because you’re seeing something I can’t see, but then let me expose you to all of the things I see. ”
It is important to remember that not many other people can see what you see in your vision for the company, and it is necessary for you to involve your employees or company into what it is that you are doing so that they understand the basis of your choices.
Otherwise, they may feel left in the dark, or may challenge you on what you decide because they do not know your full intentions.
“As I leader, I need to be thinking about and anticipating how can I better equip my team to understand the decisions I’m making … sometimes there is the right timing on what can be shared with whom, but by and large there is more we can communicate as leaders to better help our teams understand our decisions.”
When you make a decision that impacts the company and its employees, address them as a whole and explain to them why you are wanting to make this choice – especially if some people are skeptical.
People trust you when you show up consistently with honesty and compassion. If you listen to your employees, bring them on board and explain your decisions to them, they are more likely to trust you and follow your lead.
CLARITY IN LEADERSHIP
Clarity in leadership brings clarity to the company. When the leader is aware and striving towards their goals, building on the vision of the company and is aware of what they still need to learn and what they do know, then everyone else can more easily play their part.
With clarity in leadership you:
Rethink strategy,
Figure out how to overcome hurdles,
Become clear on the vision of the company
“We underestimate sometimes how powerful clarity is and how simple clarity can be. It doesn’t have to mean that we have got everything figured out, but we can clarify what we do know and we can clarify what we don’t know and that in and of itself is helpful to our teams.”
LEADERSHIP IS NOT A SOLO SPORT
Even if you are the face of the organization, or you have a huge public profile, your leadership is not a solo sport.
You are in a team, and you have a team that supports you, which means that you need to take them into consideration so that they can trust you and so that you can build a strong group together.
Resources, books, and links mentioned in this episode:
Visit her website. Connect on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn.
BOOK | Jenni Catron – Clout: Discover and Unleash Your God-Given Influence
BOOK | Jenni Catron – The 4 Dimensions of Extraordinary Leadership: The Power of Leading from Your Heart, Soul, Mind, and Strength
The Impact Driven Leader YouTube Channel
Join the Impact Driven Leader Community
Connect with Tyler on Instagram and LinkedIn
Emai Tyler: tyler@tylerdickerhoof.com
About the Impact Driven Leader Podcast
The Impact Driven Leader Podcast, hosted by Tyler Dickerhoof, is for Xillennial leaders who have felt alone and ill-equipped to lead in today's world. Through inspiring interviews with authors from around the world, Tyler uncovers how unique leadership strengths can empower others to achieve so much more, with real impact.
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As I leader, I need to be thinking about and anticipating how I can better equip my team to understand the decisions I’m making.
Jenni Catron
Podcast Transcription
[TYLER DICKERHOOF]
As you know, as you've heard, part of this podcast is also doing the Impact Driven Leader round table. I want you to listen to this quick message, this is an invitation. I want you to come sit at our table. You're going to learn, you're going to grow and you can't help, but have a great time with us. And I invite you. You're listening. There's a seat for you with your name on it. Come join us.
[MOLLY SLOAN]
Hey, this is Molly Sloan. The Impact Driven Leader book club and round table have been transformational for me. I've been involved for the past six months and it's taken me on a journey to be a better leader and a better person at work, at home, and really in every interaction with people. Tyler's done a great job of guiding us through the books. They're current, thought-provoking and they apply to all of us. The weekly round table has become an accountability team. I've done lots of leadership trainings in the past where you feel on top of the world, the week after the event, but ultimately it wears off over time. This group is better. We're on a leadership journey with each other through frequent, ongoing discussions and continual growth. I strongly recommend this group to anyone aiming to continually develop as a leader.
[TYLER]
Welcome back to the Impact Driven Leader podcast, or if you're new, someone shared this episode with you, one I'm grateful to them, grateful for you listening and spending time. If you get value out of today's episode at any point, click that share button, share it with someone. I would surely appreciate it.
Today's guest Jenni Catron, man, we had such a wonderful conversation. I'm going to set the stage right now for you. You're going to hear it later. As I was preparing, and Jenni was referred to me by the previous guest, Jeff Henderson, and I read about her and I'm like, "Man, I just want to sit and have a coffee with her." So in the email prepping, I said, and Jenni spent some time in Nashville, I said, "I just want to sit down, this interview, just like we're sitting in the Frothy Monkey, enjoying a tea, enjoying a coffee, eating a Five Daughter's donuts.
If you've been to Nashville what I'm talking about. Honestly, that's what we have. We had an hour long conversation and I'm sitting here with notes upon notes, upon notes, and a lot of things that I just love to sit down and talk to her more about not only because of her experiences. I appreciate her being tremendously vulnerable. I'll share with you guys. As you hear this. I've done a lot of research trying to find out about Jenni and she shared things in this episode I don't think she's ever shared anywhere. To me that was a virtue of just having a friendly conversation and appreciate the opportunity to call her a friend because not only does she bring tremendous value in leadership, she is this voice for women in leadership that, you know, don't worry about it, just do it.
I know that's brought a lot of challenge and learning to her. So I can't wait for you to listen to us, but as you're listening to what I want to really emphasize this one thing. She brought it up and I loved when she said it. One of the greatest tools that we can use as leaders is belief and one of the greatest gifts that we can get from leaders is beliefs. So have that as your lens, as you're listening to this. Get ready. It's a long conversation. We go all over the place, but I truly know that you're going to get value just because I did. I can't wait to see you at the end.
I do have a makeup kit for myself. I have been in enough photography and times where it's like, yes, I just, I got a lot of shine. There's a lot here that's shiny. So I need to make sure that I carry some matte finish with me to kind of, and you know what, I'm going shiny today.
[JENNI CATRON]
That's all right. I'm still a little shiny, but we're going to roll with it because it's Friday and it's so much more about the conversation than it is.
[TYLER]
That is what I'm most excited. So let me give you a little bit of, for you, this is the first time obviously talking. Hopefully you'll get to know me as a person. I want to know you as a person because one of the things that I love about doing these podcasts and the people that we so mutually know together, I'm so thankful that many of them are one, not only influences in my life impact me, but friends. Jeff, Brad, Trey, you go through the list of different people that I know we know, and John Maxwell and so forth, and just like those are close friends of mine. So to know that they're intimate in your life as well is what makes this, why I sent me a mail. I sent it's like, "Let's just go sit down at Frothy Monkey and chat.
[JENNI]
I loved that. And I was like, "Yes, I wish we could." That would be kind of perfect. Although you can't record a good podcast episode with all the noise around us, but if somebody figured that out, that ---
[TYLER]
Well, let's figure it out. I'm going to, I'm going to give you a story. So I was thinking about that. Honestly, I would love that. If I had a private jet at my disposal and whatever, I would say, Jenni, I'm going to pick you up and we're going to fly to Nashville and you can have a cup of tea and I will have some coffee or whatever. We're going to walk across the street to Five Daughters and get ourselves to donut and just sit down. To me, that's why I'm so excited to just sit with you and ask questions and wonder because to me, it's a lot of curiosity and wonder of how did Jenni end up where Jenni's at doing what Jenni's doing with the heart that you display in doing it?
So that's kind of what the topic is, but I'm going to share this with you. So I've known who you are for almost a year now. How I learned about Jenni is, one of my morning routines is I use the YouVersion Bible app. I'm a person of Christian faith and so that is part of my morning routine and your four dimensions of extraordinary leadership plan was featured. I loved it and I ended up doing it. What's funny is I'm going to grab my phone because I think this is a great time to share as we get into it. This is how I got to know Jenni and there was three excerpts that came through that, that I'm going to read, that come from your book that really impacted me. So I want this to just set the foundation. We're getting to know each other.
So the first one is you wrote one of the great privileges of leadership is that we're able to help others accomplish feats that they didn't think they had in them. You know what I love about leadership, helping people accomplish something they never thought they could, to see that like wonder and excitement and be like, wow. So where did that come from for you?
[JENNI]
You know, I think it came from other people doing that for me. So I was really fortunate in kind of my early, I would say my early days of leadership is that I had some remarkable leaders that I worked for. This is back, I worked in the music business initially and I worked for some phenomenal leaders and I didn't even know the gift that I had because they gave me opportunities. So I started at the record company when I was 20. I finished my degree while I was also working. By 23 I think they had promoted me to the manager of the sales and marketing division. So I was way over my head with the responsibility given, but I just felt like they believed in me and that gift of belief was so phenomenal. So as I found myself in more positions of leadership and a broader span of care for team members, I think, I can't even say Tyler, that it was like purposeful.
I think because it had been modeled for me, I just wanted to do that for others. And I would see people and I would see potential and I would be like, you can do this. Then if there was a hint of doubt or uncertainty or insecurity, I wanted to be the first to help them overcome that because I could see potential. So I really early on found a lot of joy in being able to do that. I don't get this perfect at all, but I think as I really began to define what I would say is my philosophy of leadership, and frankly, I also had a ton of blenders and still do as a leader and I had leaders kind of coaching me through that, just realized, I want to know what great God honoring leadership looks like and do that really, really well. And one of the quick joys I discovered was like, it is such a joy and a privilege to help other people see potential that they didn't even see in themselves.
[TYLER]
I believe belief is one of the greatest superpowers that we can have in ourself and it's the greatest, super power we can give to others.
[JENNI]
That's true.
[TYLER]
I mean, I believe that wholly. I've experienced that. Probably the most pivotal times in my life is when, there's a couple people that are dear mentors of mine now. And they believed in me when I had no belief in myself and I'm like, what? And that's honestly why I'm here chatting with you today. It's amazing, and as I was prepping and heard some of the stories about the amazing leaders that you had. What about some of the leaders that weren't so amazing? What did you learn from that?
[JENNI]
I'll tell you a very specific story. This is also when I was working at the record company and I was in a season under a leader that was quite challenging for me. And I was really frustrated and I had a little journal that I would keep in the drawer of my desk and I would pull it out whenever this leader would do something that I was frustrated by, because first of all, I needed just a place to vent because I knew it wasn't appropriate to vent that sideways, and ---
[TYLER]
Quite mature of you.
[JENNI]
We probably just had ---
[TYLER]
For those that are listening, you couldn't see her face and I just want to say, she's like, yes, you can say that, but not say that, but we'll just move along.
[JENNI]
Probably not so much. I wish it was all maturity. Let's be honest. So I needed somewhere to channel my frustration, is the long and short of it. So I had this little journal where I would write out, frankly, things that I would do differently if I were in that leader's shoes, because of course I was still a 20 something incredibly arrogant about, I thought it could be done so much better. But here's the thing. It forced me to process and to think about it, like, what would I do if I were in their shoes? The irony is, I mean, literally this is on my bookshelf, right back here, that same notebook, because I will go back to it to remind myself of, we don't always what our leaders are navigating.
Because, fast forward a couple of years, I get promoted into that position and all of a sudden I had this aha moment of like, oh, I didn't see the whole picture. I didn't understand everything that my leader was facing. I only had one kind of view on the issue. So I had kept all these notes and rants and suggestions of how I would do it different if I were in their shoes. That was helpful because I think there were some things that were good and I was just processing and learning, how would I do it if I were in that seat? But then it also, once I did get to that place of leadership, it gave me such compassion for what the leaders ahead of us are navigating because we never see the whole picture in our seat. So it sits on my shelf as a reminder of just that posture of humility we ought to have as leaders and have an opinion, process it, think it through, try to learn from it. But then also hold a little bit of humility for the fact that you might not see it all or know it all. So I might've taken a tangent on your question.
[TYLER]
No. I mean, here's the on it. Like I kind of said, we're just sitting down having a conversation. I even literally, as I was preparing for this, I'm like, all right, where are we going to go with this, because I know we can talk a lot of good stuff and I'm prepared for it. I just want to ask questions and just want to learn and like thinking about this, like, this is probably a podcast we could do two or three episodes. And that's where it's like, I would love to sit on the coffee shop and just keep, let's go along with this because if I'm sitting here and I'm thinking, okay, Jenni, so you're writing down these notes, which I think is extremely healthy for a young leader in a healthy leadership position. And again, if the relationship is there, you're writing those down and then you're going to the leader and say, "Hey, okay, I'm trying to learn and grow. These are the things that I see. What don't I see that you are going through? Help me understand."
Because to me, as a leader, that's a lot of fun to be able to say, I appreciate what you're saying. Now, let me show you what I see, all the other things and then as a young leader, you're like, oh, I never thought about all that. Oh my goodness. And I think it is this development of not only our responsibility, if we go back and hinge on the great desire to help others accomplish more. There is a duty to expose to them what they can't see in order that they can accomplish that. That's a great opportunity with leadership, with the vision, all of that stuff, but then there's like, hey, you got to be able to handle when they're shooting rockets at you because they don't understand and to say, it's okay, bring it on because I know those are good questions. That's probably going to help me as a leader because you're seeing something I can't see. But then let me expose you to all the things I see.
[JENNI]
Yes, that's exactly right. It really gave me a bit of compassion and like you said, an understanding of as a leader, then I need to be thinking about any anticipating, how can I better equip my team to understand the decisions I'm making? Sometimes there are things that are inappropriate. Sometimes there's right timing for what can be shared with whom, but by and large, there is more, we can communicate as leaders to better help our teams understand our decisions even if it's a, Hey, I know this is not going to be popular and it's not everybody's preference, but here's the decision I'm making and why. It's really an act of respect. I say in general communication is an act of respect to our coworkers.
So part of that experience with that particular leader and my little scribblings of notes was this realization that there's so much I didn't understand. But then in that position of leadership, remembering, what was it like when I was in that seat and how can I better serve them, the teams that I lead and helping them understand where we're going, what we're doing, why we're doing it. And that there's really a responsibility on my part as a leader to alleviate frustration for team members as much as possible.
[TYLER]
To me, that is the great opportunity for leaders like, "Hey, my job is to get rid of the hurdles, to make those barriers in front of you." Like, how can I do it? But I don't know if they're not there. There's something that you said and I learned this from a mentor, from Craig Rochelle, and he shares that a lot that leaders always got to tell the truth. However, you don't have to tell all the truth all the time, meaning it's just not the right time or place. It's, those things could blow their mind to just overwhelm them and you cause more problems and you end up hurting. It's like, I need to be completely truthful and authentic. And as someone who probably did way too much of telling the truth in the past, in regards to it I have no problem telling people their babies are ugly, but I say that, and it's like, I'm going to throw the grenade, but then I'm going to jump on it.
I know you're Enneagram three, I'm Enneagram eight. I'm like, let's get down to, Brené Brown says rumble, but then it's like, how do we fix this? Because I know once we identify the problem, then we can fix it. But if you cause more harm in identifying the problem, you we'll never get the opportunity to fix it. And I think that's where that idea of as a leader saying, all right, let me bring you guys in. Let me bring you in and tell you what's going on. And maybe I can't see it all if I'm missing something. Let me know. But this is everything. Why are you making this decision? I also believe, especially what we've seen the last 16, 17 months.
I want to tap into an article you just wrote, which I love. We'll talk about the great resignation here in a second, but the idea that right now, the value of authenticity and real transparency and being genuine in the workplace is probably going to be more highly valued than ever. Because everyone, no one knows what's going on. So no one can have the whole picture. So we're willing as leaders to say, "Hey, all right, this is the frame." Then it comes from, one, what don't I see? Help me understand that but two, this is why we're doing it. I know it may hurt. I don't want to hurt you, but this is why.
[JENNI]
That's right. Yes, that level of, one of the question or words I come back to over and over particularly right now, but I think it's always critical for leaders is clarity. Our job is to provide as much clarity as we possibly can. Sometimes the clarity is even, I'm relatively unclear about this, but here's what I do know, because that's been a reality for the last 16 months, that every leader is like, my ability to try to provide long range, vision and direction, none of us have that capability or have had it. But to be able to say that into acknowledge that and to identify what we do know, and this happened for me and my team early on last year. It was the scramble of, oh my goodness, who's going to hire consultants and coaches for leadership and team culture in the middle of a pandemic when they're just trying to figure out if their organization is going to even be standing and all of the budgets are going to be cut. All of our contracts are going to disappear.
So we had that initial fear and reaction as every company and organization did. And I was sitting here and I was like, okay, "Wait, what's our mission. What's our vision?" Cultivate healthy leaders to lead thriving organizations. Like our mission is to invest in and develop leaders. They're going to need us. But it was like, our mission is still clear. Now how we're going to do that and if we're going to make a living from that is a different conversation, but this is what's clear. And that's what I did with my team in that moment, was, "Guys, this is what I know. There's a ton I don't know, but this is who we are. This is what we do and now we're going to find a way forward together. How can we do that?"
That sounds so simple, but it was incredibly clarifying for me and for the team. I'm like, wait, who are we? What are we about? Okay, let's go back. That's clarifying. Let's go back to that. Because now we rethink strategy. We figure out how to do it, but this is what we do. So we underestimate sometimes how powerful clarity is and how simple clarity can be. It doesn't have to mean we've got everything figured out, but we can clarify what we do know and we can clarify what we don't know. And that in and of itself is helpful to our teams.
[TYLER]
Well, from my personal experience, it's that ability to be confident in what and what you don't know that provides confidence for everyone. Because you're like, "I don't know, but this is what I do now." As I've been in those situations, like, okay, I get it, that's fine. But the person that kind of wants to feed you a line or so like, oh, yay, that type of leader doesn't do anyone any good. I mean, in any level, it doesn't matter where you're at, family to, it doesn't matter. And I think that's where I come back to this idea. It's like always be truthful, always be authentic, and just, if you got to swallow a bitter pill, just swallow it and move on. Because as I've learned is it doesn't get easier over time and the sooner you deal with it, the better off it is. Maybe it's the Midwestern growing up on a farm part of me. It's like, don't do it today, it's going to be worse tomorrow. So you just get it done.
[JENNI]
So right.
[TYLER]
You're a Midwesterner, I learned.
[JENNI]
Yes.
[TYLER]
Wisconsin. A Badger.
[JENNI]
Yes. That's true. Born and raised here, left for about 20 something years and then just came back.
[TYLER]
Just came back? All right. Big time and great in Milwaukee right now. I mean, people are excited, like over the moon.
[JENNI]
It's been a good week to be Wisconsiner, Wisconsinite.
[TYLER]
Yes, Wisconsinite. You've been gone awhile. It's okay.
[JENNI]
I have been gone a while. I was going to say Wisconsin girl, and then I like smashed it together and then I was like, that's all right. Where in the Midwest are you from Tyler?
[TYLER]
I'm a Buckeye.
[JENNI]
Okay. Fair enough. You know what, by and large, I feel like Midwesterners are like, we kind of unite around the Midwestern thing and ---
[TYLER]
Especially once you get outside of the Midwest. So I've lived in Spokane, I've lived on the west coast for going on 20 years now. So I have been out of the Midwest. It's so funny. I was just talking to a friend he's from Iowa and he starts making Hawkeye jokes and I'm, "No, there's no joke here. I like badgers, yes, Buckeyes, okay, but Hawkeyes, now this doesn't, what are you talking about man?" He was like, "Oh, I guess I don't really have anything to talk about." I'm like, "It's either that, or I've been far enough removed from the Midwest where it's like, I'm a pro Buckeye, but it is."
[JENNI]
That's so great.
[TYLER]
That's kind of like it. It's kind of like it's Michigan. I told Paul Ferres this as a guest and I said to Paul, "Paul, at some point they have to win because if they don't, it's really no longer a rivalry." So it I got to talk to her then right after they extended his contract for Heartland, I'm like, "Seriously, when is this ever going to change? Do you just not want to win? Is that what the Wolverines are trying to do?"
[JENNI]
That's hilarious.
[TYLER]
Ys. I mean, you got to understand some big 10 football. I hopefully appreciate you can understand big 10 football Jenni.
[JENNI]
A little bit. I'm going to be honest, not a ton because I left. I went to college in Tennessee and then yes, family weren't big into big 10 football growing up. So like ---
[TYLER]
Packers, yes, just not football?
[JENNI]
Packers, yes. Yes.
[TYLER]
I mean, there's Packers, Badgers and Bucks, kind of brewers too, but I mean, it's really Packers Badgers, and it's like, everything else is kind of next level, but it's like, which one of those are you?
[JENNI]
Yes. I have learned I have to re-engage my sporting fanness, if, shall we call it or you can't be a true Wisconsin, Ike, if you are not a Packer fan and now a Bucks fan and a Badger fan. That's a lot to keep up with. I'm going to be honest.
[TYLER]
It's a weight to carry. Now for our audience, and they're kind of, I'm just going to say this, Jenni and I are sitting in a coffee shop. We're not sitting next to each other. To me, this is like fun. You lived in California for awhile. I lived in California for eight years and I pretty much lost all zeal. It was a healthy thing. I lost all zeal for sports. I'm a Buckeyes fan. I didn't go to Ohio state. So there's kind of that separation, but I'm still a Buckeye. And you go to California and there's like, they don't care about sports. It's just irrelevant. It's just like, what are you talking about? Who cares about the game? And I'm like, that's all we ever had. Like that's it.
So then staying on the west coast, moving to Washington, and of course people are zealous about the Seahawks and of course the cougars and whatever and it's just, there's a part that I only got reignited because of my kids. My sons just started to get into sports, but it actually was very healthy because it was like, instead of being so ingrained into what happened at a game, it's like, all right. Yes, that's fun and enjoyable. It was really kind of this element of learning. And to me, this is a leadership element to never get too high, never get too low. And if you can never get too high and never get too low, and then, you know the things that come that are great, great. And the things that are bad, all right, fine. No big deal. We'll move through it.
[JENNI]
Yes. I'm probably just a little bit too antsy to just be a spectator. So I'm not a great stand for that reason.
[TYLER]
You'd rather compete?
[JENNI]
I'd rather compete.
[TYLER]
Your sport of choice is?
[JENNI]
Tennis.
[TYLER]
Why tennis? Let's get into tennis.
[JENNI]
I played for one year in high school, on the tennis team, but here's the reality of it. My best friend played on the team. They were short of members and she recruited me and I'd never picked up a racket in my life.
[TYLER]
Did you beat her?
[JENNI]
I did not beat her, but to tell you ---
[TYLER]
I mean, that would be, you end up beating her and you're like, I've never played before. That would be ---
[JENNI]
Which would be terrible. But here's, what's telling, is our team was so bad that I was number four on the team and I never picked up a racket before I showed up for practice. So there's that. But I played, I had fun, I learned the game and I just kind of enjoyed it. So fast forward, I ended up taking lessons probably when I was in my thirties and I finally decided I want to actually really learn the game, get a good coach to kind of teach me. So I did that and now it's just become kind of a fun hobby. My husband enjoys it as well and so that's something we can play together. So it works. So I ended up, I actually got to go to the US open two years ago which is a blast. So yes, I really enjoy tennis.
[TYLER]
Okay, cool. I mean, it's one of those things, we don't have a lot of tennis in Ohio, so I never really played tennis. What's funny now is, especially being Spokane is kind of like a hotbed of pickleball. So I know a lot ---
[JENNI]
Oh, pickleball is out of rage right now. I don't know how to play it.
[TYLER]
Yes. It's, trust me, if you can play tennis, you can play pickleball and you're actually, this is a lot more fun, because it's not quite as like strenuous on the body, but they've played pickleball here in the Pacific Northwest for like 30 to 40 years. It's just been, like when we moved here, people were like, oh yes, that we play in the cul-de-sac. That's just what we did during the summer. So to see the sport takeoff and like a lot, a couple of the very high level players are from this area. It's just really interesting. We've gotten off of leadership
[JENNI]
We really have. It's good.
[TYLER]
So I, again, this conversation's a little all over. I hope people are enjoying it, but I want to share this because it ties into something that I think is, I want you to help me here. So this is, I don't know how many different podcast released, 28.? We're recording this the 23rd of July and hopefully it comes out soon because I've enjoyed it. So I want to get it out soon and I also know you have a big conference coming in about two weeks, so I'm hoping we can get it in there for that too. And I'll let you talk about that. But my wife, who doesn't listen to my podcast and that's okay ---
[JENNI]
My husband doesn't listen to mine either.
[TYLER]
She, yes, and honestly, I would actually, it would be worse if she did, because then I'd be cringing about what she would say about what I say and just, I've had to move past that. For those that are listening that know my wife, you know. So she goes, "Tyler why don't you have more women on your podcast?" I'm like, "That's a great question. I would love to. I've now had you, I've had Paula Ferres, Sasha, great people I've thoroughly looked forward to enjoy. And part of the problem is, and I asked myself this, if I think about talking about leadership, talking about, and I love your mission to cultivate healthy leaders to lead, help thriving teams, I love that. What's funny is my purpose, which I just came up with, figured out finally about two months ago is to help other leaders get healthy too.
[JENNI]
I saw that in you.
[TYLER]
Yes. So I reached out to Jeff Henderson and I said, "Hey, who should I have?" He responded, "Jenni, Jenni Catron." That's it, done. I'm like, "Oh, of course. Why not?" I'm familiar with your stuff. We already touched on that. I might get back to that. And one of the things that I see and understand is you're leading, have led, you've led in the music industry, from a leadership point of view, I'm guessing very heavy male representation. You've led in ministry and in the church world, which has very heavy male dominance. So I stop and think about this and think about it, is this isn't a faith based podcast leadership basin. And I think to myself as how many female thought leaders are talking about proactive, healthy, good leadership that aren't doing it as a Bible study?
[JENNI]
Right.
[TYLER]
I don't know of many.
[JENNI]
Yes. We're a little bit rare.
[TYLER]
Why is that?
[JENNI]
That's a good question. I feel like sometimes, I don't know, sometimes I think I just am a little bit of an odd duck. I've loved leadership ever since I can remember and I really, I have often been in primarily male teams and leadership environments, so forth, and I think I was just so committed to what I wanted to do and what I wanted to be a part of that I was like, "Well, this is the landscape. I'm just going to figure out how to do it well." So sometimes I feel like I don't quite understand where, the things that have been inhibited other women from stepping into more leadership. I just don't think I looked at things the same way. Maybe I had. I don't know that I would say I had an easier pathway, because I certainly had a lot of challenges along the way, but I do often hear that sometimes women wait to be invited into leadership opportunities. They're less likely to assert themselves, and I think that might be sometimes why we see less women in more leadership spaces because they wait to be invited. And I think by and large, a lot of men just kind of assert themselves into, "Hey I'm interested in that next opportunity. Count me in. Consider me." I think women sometimes can be a bit more passive about that. I wasn't. And I wonder what that stuff is about me.
[TYLER]
Let me interject right there because, I think somebody told me, and they said, women, say there's a position and there's 10 qualifications, this is what was said, women won't consider it unless they meet all 10.
[JENNI]
That's right.
[TYLER]
Yet that same position, if a male is looking at it, of those 10 qualifications, if he meets six, he will say, "Let's do it."
[JENNI]
Yes.
[TYLER]
Has that been your experience, that kind of what you're seeing too?
[JENNI]
Yes. That is that. I've used that same example on a number of occasions.
[TYLER]
So I didn't make it up?
[JENNI]
You didn't make it up. I've heard it multiple places.
[TYLER]
Good. It was good to know.
[JENNI]
Yes, good recall there. But yes, I think that's true. And I don't know what that is, and frankly, I just haven't like studied it very deeply to figure out why is that? Why do women feel like they have to show up a hundred percent equipped before they step into an opportunity whereas men are more likely to just give it a shot. I don't know exactly what that is. It's funny because, in my first book, I wrote a book called Clout: Discover and Unleash Your God-Given Influence and I talk a lot in that book about the things that hold us back from leading effectively. And one of those things is insecurity and I've certainly had plenty of those moments in my own journey of insecurity getting the best of me. But I think there were kind of key moments where I did kind of put myself out there and I didn't really have a lot to lose.
So I grew up in kind of town, rural Wisconsin, none of my immediate family had gone to college. So I was the first in kind of our immediate and extended family to go to college. So I didn't really have a lot to lose. So I kind of just put myself out there of like, this is what I want to do. This is what I, and I did want to be a CEO of a record company when I was like 12. I don't know that I even understood what a CEO of a record company does. I just set my sights on that and said, this is what I want to be when I grow up. I kind of had declared it. So then I was kind of committed to it and that first job that I took at or first promotion that I took at the record company, the first job at the record company was first intern, then it was front desk, no, it was file keeper, which basically means I went around from department to department and just organize their files, did whatever they told me to do.
I was paid very nominally for that. Then I was the front desk, receptionist, then I was the coordinator of the sales and marketing department and then my boss left and I wrote literally a 20 page paper, because I'm still kind of college student brain, a 20 page paper for why they should promote me into the position of manager of the department. Again, I'm 23 years old. I have no business taking the job, but I don't even know what I wrote. I'm like, I don't know how I had 20 pages worth of information to substantiate why I should be promoted, but they did end up giving me the job, but I like looked back and then I'm like, I'm not even sure I would do that at this stage of my life.
Somehow I had the gumption to do that as a 23 year old. But I think I had less to lose and so I just went after it. Then once you kind of had that momentum, I just built on it and I was in a primarily male dominated culture right off the bat and didn't know any different. So I just kind of knew you show up and you figure out how to survive and how to build connections and succeed in this environment. So I don't really know, to get back to your question, I don't really know the answer for why we see fewer women in the space. I think it's growing. I do feel like I can look back at 20 plus years of my career journey so far, and I see more women coming up behind me and that makes me really excited. I wish the pace was a little faster and I do feel like that's a bit of ---
[TYLER]
In which slot? In people being willing to step into it or the opportunity for them?
[JENNI]
I think both, the opportunity for them and their willingness to step into it, although I think the willingness trails, and this is ---
[TYLER]
I mean, that information that we were talking about earlier alludes to that. It's that willingness, is like, unless it's a for sure deal, I'm not even going to touch it.
[JENNI]
Yes. And I think there is a bit of, I don't mean to give the impression that this isn't a challenge for me at times, because again, most of my world, I am interacting with mostly men and I do often second guess myself, and feel like I'm the underdog at the table, like, if I really kind of dissect it. and I have to really be intentional and think about that. So there is like a lot of mustering up the courage and the confidence to put yourself out there. And I think this is probably true for, I'm sure minority groups also experience this, that when you're the only female at the table, then you feel like, gosh, if I mess it up, like there's a little bit of extra pressure being there.
[TYLER]
I get what you're saying. So if I were to screw this up, then all of a sudden other people that look like me or are like me, won't get the opportunity because I screwed it up for them. So that's a responsibility of pressure that you felt at times.
[JENNI]
Yes, for sure. And I have heard that from other women that are anticipating or contemplating more leadership influence and a real fear that, gosh, first of all, I'm not, am I a hundred percent qualified for this and then secondly, if I don't get it right, it won't just affect me, but it could impact other women having the opportunity as well. So I do think, and whether those things are probably not being said, I'm not trying to blame men for ---
[TYLER]
I think it's in that case. It's like my belief is you can't fix a problem if you, it goes back to the ugly baby. It's like, if no one's willing to say it, it is what it is. It's not how you say it, is one thing. If you say it in a demeaning way, if you say it for example, if there's context tie in, if we're sitting there and I'm the only male in the room and there's female everywhere, and that's a lot of my work, I'm used to that. And also I'm at the point of saying, it's like, I've never had a situation if I screw this up, that means no other guy is ever going to get the opportunity. I've never felt that. So to hear that is very interesting because then I look back, and would love to tie this into being healthy as a leader and all those other things is how then as a leader, as we're talking to leaders, is both of us are in this challenge to help other leaders be healthy too. How can we encourage them to say, "Hey you know that that girl that is 23, that's sitting at the end of the table? How can you go and make sure that you encourage her to say, hey, I believe in you and you can do this. You may not think you can, but I know you can, and don't worry if you screw it up, it's okay, because I've screwed it up too and I'm still here." How much is that our opportunity to embrace and say, that's our real challenge?
[JENNI]
That's exactly it. I think it's seeing that in people. It goes back to what we even started with that idea of the gift of belief. Like, so see that younger leader at the table, see that woman leader at the table, create the opportunity and equip them. Again, it's all in how, but I have rarely met a leader who did not want some coaching from me if the intent of my coaching was to equip them to succeed. So it's quite a bit about my motive as a leader. Do I just want to be the one who knows everything and wants to mansplain it away? Or am I actually like, wanting ---
[TYLER]
Oh, wait a second. Wait a second. We got to go back, for this conversation wherever we're going, you've got to define that one for me. Come on. That is a, go ahead, Jenni.
[JENNI]
Well, because I joked that, I mansplained. So as I ---
[TYLER]
You're Enneagram three. I mean, it's, you're just like, let's get to business. Let's go. Let's go.
[JENNI]
That's right. So I mean, as I understand the term, it's basically like when a guy will feel like he needs to over explain everything to you, and it's a bit demeaning that they've got to explain everything because you're too ignorant to get it yourself. That's my interpretation of mansplaining.
[TYLER]
It's fitting in this conversation. That's fine.
[JENNI]
But I think I do that as a leader sometimes because my arrogance gets the best of me, or I want to make sure that somebody knows exactly what they need to do and I am diminishing their own wisdom, insight, competency, et cetera. So we need to be mindful of that, was basically my point. It's that what's my motivation in giving that coaching and feedback, because I want to make sure that they mess, because here's the kicker. Am I giving them the coaching, the direction and the equipping because I don't want them to fail because it's a reflection on me or am I giving them the coaching and equipping to help them succeed for their good. And it's all about my motive.
[TYLER]
Well, because to me, as you're coming to that, now I'm thinking about it and I'm thinking about in a situation, the difference. And I'll go back to mansplaining. It's like, if you're doing so, because you're almost in that, like I'm telling you exactly, that doesn't help anyone. But if I'm explaining and I'm asking and I'm leaving questions and I'm I'm helping guide you and I'm helping you see maybe what you can't see because in this situation, this is what's going on, but the next situation I'm hopefully equipping you with the information that you're better able to succeed, that to me is healthy leadership.
[JENNI]
That's right.
[TYLER]
But that's also coming from being healthy as a leader too, because there's two things that you, I'm going to dip into here. One of the greatest things that I had to overcome was my own insecurity. I had to overcome my own insecurities to become a better leader. And you mentioned sometimes of having to deal with that insecurity, you mentioned just a little bit ago arrogance or pride. Those are things that were biting for me. For me, it was a lack of empathy. I was callous. I was hard. I just pushed through. I know maybe you've had that happen. I'm guessing, possibly as far as a driven achievement person, I am just going to push in. Emotions aside, it doesn't matter. Let's reach the goal.
[JENNI]
Yes
[TYLER]
Carnage.
[JENNI]
I have been called heartless as a leader a few times, I'm not going to lie.
[TYLER]
I noticed that heartless and non-relational as I believe you'd even described it at one turn, which I'd love to talk about more. Just because I know in the ---
[JENNI]
I'm not proud of that by the way.
[TYLER]
No, no, no, but hey, I've been called an a-hole so many times and it's been like, it's hard. It's all about him. And to be honest because we're just going to go here. I want to find out where you feel like that came from because I believe this, you can't become healthy unless you identify where that came from. For me, where that came from is when my brother died and I had to push through. So how I got through that is I just put my head down and pushed. Well, 23 years later, as I'm still in cases where it gets tough, putting my head down and pushing and realizing, hey dude, it's all about you, I'm like, it's not about me at all. I don't care.
[JENNI]
But it was a defense mechanism.
[TYLER]
It was the armor I put. So that's what kept me from being an empathetic leader. It's kept me from having heart. It kept me from my heart and soul actually coming out, my desire to connect with people. I mean, we haven't even talked about this stuff you do, because I want to know about Jenni. And as I've read your book and understand, it's like we can get into the mind and the strength, like whatever I want to know about the heart and soul, because as I've learned that's where everything flows out of. So where did you learn or walk us through this idea of Jenni being heartless and saying this doesn't work, I have to own it because it is, but I'm not proud of it, to where you are today and what you're doing to work through that.
[JENNI]
Thank you. I so appreciate that that's your heart and passion and thank you for sharing a bit of your story in that. So I didn't realize just how kind of callous I was and very self-focused. I would not have ever thought I was self-focused because I was always worried about what everybody else thought, which is also very Enneagram three, very conscientious of what everybody thinks and how everybody you, very chameleon, you just adjust to the circumstances you're in for survival and you achieve, achieve, achieve, achieve, because you believe that everything you are worth is about what you do. So that was very much the messaging for me. So in those early days of my music business career I was so focused on achievement in a 20 page paper to get the promotion.
And very shortly after I got that promotion I was incredibly frustrated. My team is frustrated, things are not going well, and I am freaking out that I am going to fail at doing this job. So my whole worth felt like it was on the line because here I had lobbied for this gigantic promotion, I got the gigantic promotion, I get the team of staff that I'm responsible for and frankly I was just barking orders, like crazy, because out of all of my insecurity and fear of failure, I am just pushing the team like crazy to ---
[TYLER]
Trying to will it to happen.
[JENNI]
Yes, absolutely, and just making everybody, including myself, miserable in the process. Out of that, one of my boss at the time said to me, Jenni, if you want to work with leaders, you're going to learn how to love them to lead them. He said, if you want to work with widgets, go work in a factory because he was basically like, you are applying no heart to your leadership and these are humans.
[TYLER]
Do you understand how at 23, you were 23?
[JENNI]
Yes.
[TYLER]
How valuable that was?
[JENNI]
Oh, changed the trajectory. Literally Tyler, that conversation changed the trajectory of my leadership and my life for that matter. What's important to note, there is a leader who is willing to give me tough feedback. I know he believed in me, I know he loved me, ---
[TYLER]
So you had connected, he had built trust with you, he had showed you his heart and that he believed again, that belief in you and then he said, I see what you're doing and let me just tell you, if you don't start treating people like people, it's not going to work.
[JENNI]
And I was expecting the arm around my shoulder, like you're the golden child, Jenni, whatever you need to do, let's fire this whole team. I mean, I was completely blindsided. I had no understanding of how the way I was approaching leadership was not a recipe for success. So he gives me that feedback and it puts me in a tailspin. I'm like, I don't understand what great leadership looks like. There's this whole side of me that I am unaware of. So long story short, I probably spend, really Tyler no less than a decade, like committed to what does great leadership look like, wow do I lead myself well? And really the premise for everything my team and I do at foresight is based upon self leadership. Like you have got to lead yourself where, well, you have got to be self aware, you have got to have overall emotional intelligence and understanding of why you do what you do because how you leave you impacts everything you do.
So that was the journey for me. I just went into this deep dive of, I need to understand what leadership looks like. And then frankly, it was some really good counselor who started helping me unpack why, why was I so callous? Why was I so heartless? Because it wasn't true of me at the core, but it was how I thought I had to show up as a leader and frankly in other places of my life. So the backstory to that, just to give you the actual, why, I was like, you asked me that and I want to get to that because I'm not trying to dodge it.
[TYLER]
No, I was going to, I'm an Enneagram eight. I'm going to challenge you and find out why.
[JENNI]
You're going to push. Now, here's the story. My parents had me at the ages where my mom was 17 and my dad was 20. They were kind of ushered into marriage because they were pregnant with an unplanned pregnancy. So right off the bat, it was a very rocky situation for them. It was not the path that either of them had planned, so just suffice it to say that those early days were pretty rocky and like within five years my parents divorced. So within five years they divorced, they did have a second child in there, so my sister and I are five and one at the time. Then both of our parents kind of trying to figure out life, they're both super young, but divorced with two kids, so just very complex kind of family dynamics.
Both of my parents married and remarried multiple times. So we had a very like kind of volatile family dynamic and I very quickly just learned to take care of myself, bottom line. Like I never really felt like I belonged in even their family. Yes, I always kind of felt like I was in the way. My parents are both fantastic. That was never the intention. It was just kind of a product of the circumstances. For a season we didn't have of resources. We were pretty poor. So I just learned to be scrappy and to take care of myself. My self focus was a survival mechanism. And then I go to again, I mentioned earlier that none of my extended family had gone to college.
So even finding a pathway to college, I kind of figured out on my own. They didn't know how to help. So it was like, if I want to do this, I've got to figure it out. So that was kind of my mentality. If I want to do this, I figure it out. So I went school in Tennessee because I knew I wanted to work at a record company. That was my dream job. So I'm going to go to school in Tennessee. I'm going to get myself closer to that industry, try to get network, to try to make connections. I figured out, okay, how can I get, what I want to say, scholarships and grants to help me cover it. So I just kind of figured it out. So I just was very independent, very make-it-happen myself. But in that there were also like some ---
[TYLER]
So I'm going to stop you here, because I think that's such a valuable trait in accomplishment. However, as you, I think, are identifying, that's a real hurdle to overcome in leadership.
[JENNI]
For sure. Yes, that's exactly right. It was like, it can be one of my great strengths, but it can also be an incredible detriment to my leadership because leadership isn't about you or it isn't for you. The position and the gift of leadership is really for the people that you get to serve and lead.
[TYLER]
It comes back to what I read at the very beginning, which there's two others, and I haven't read at all.
[JENNI]
We haven't even got the first one.
[TYLER]
I mean, who knows what, I mean, this is, I can't believe we've been talking an hour. It's fun. Is one of the great privileges of leadership is that we are able to help others accomplish feats they didn't think they had in them. There's nothing in there that says the idea of great leadership is I can utilize the skills of others to help me get what I want. And that's what you were doing.
[JENNI]
Yes. And yet that was probably what I like very subconsciously thought is like ---
[TYLER]
Because that's how you survived. It's how can I use this? How can I be in this situation? And it's how can I use all this in order that I can survive? That's very natural, right?
[JENNI]
Yes. It was very much ---
[TYLER]
I totally gotten you off track, but this is ---
No, no, no, that's exactly right. So yes, it was that, I just had to take care of myself and that was what I did. So even playing tennis, it's a solo sport of sorts. You really realize that when you watch great tennis players, there's a remarkable team around them. They just happen to be the one on the court who is playing the game ---
[TYLER]
I think that's the difference between great individual tennis players, as opposed to world class tennis players, the ones that realize I can't do it on my own.
[JENNI]
On my own, yes. I might be the one out there on the court, but it's really not just me. But I had a tendency to do things that were a solo sport of sorts and then I find myself in leadership and leadership is not a solo sport. Even if you are the CEO of the company or the face of the organization, even if you do something like I do now where I'm a speaker and a writer, even if you might be the one that has a little more public profile, leadership is not a solo sport. And that was what that conversation with my boss just began to unlock in me, is that I had a complete misunderstanding of what leadership even was, and then a complete rewiring of how I operated. I had to reprogram some of that because I was so in many ways, guarded, hyper-independent, operated a lot from an attitude of scarcity. I still have to watch very closely and none of that is healthy in leadership. So yes, that's where it came from. It's always a journey to continue to learn from it and figure it out but yes, I'm super grateful I had a leader who challenged it early on.
[TYLER]
Yes. I think timing is perfect and what opportunities. I can't say when I had to learn why I did what I did. I wish it would've happened earlier, but I'm thankful it happened when it happened and at the same point, the experiences and the curvy path that I had to take to be able to say, okay, yes, that doesn't work so well. It's not fun to push people away at the end of the day. It's not fun to be in that situation where you're kind of hiding in the corner when you don't want to, because you feel like you've pushed everyone away.
[JENNI]
Right, and you look up and nobody's around you like, because you've, and that driven achiever that is go, go, go, go, go and then all of a sudden you look up and you're like, "I'm totally by myself. Nobody is here with me." You'll appreciate this story, Tyler. This was fast forward, because that's the thing, this is not just a one time thing and you're like, "Oh, I'm magically healthy as a leader." No, it's a process.
[TYLER]
It's kind of like a shower. You got to do it every day or you start to stink. You have to focus on being healthy in all the different arrays that you have identified, which I so align with. You have to do that all every day or you start to stink.
[JENNI]
Yes, that's exactly right. I had a conversation I was having with my husband it, I don't know, probably 10 years or so ago now. It's been a bit, but I was just processing with him a relationship with a friend where I just didn't feel like we were connecting. I was like, really enjoy this person. I want to spend more time with this person, but I feel like they're kind of guarded and and maybe I'm being guarded too and like, I don't quite understand why. Because it was a season where I was trying to be a lot more intentional with friendships because I realized that sometimes I can just be a workaholic, and then I sacrifice friendships for that. So I'm having this conversation with my husband and he says, "Jen, we've been married 10 years and I feel like there are times I still don't know you."
I was like, "Really?" Because it, again, we had been married 10 years by that point and I thought, I felt like he was the person I knew best. And he wasn't being a jerk. He was just saying, "Hey, you are still guarded. Like that's kind of your nature, to be a bit guarded." So it was just another one of those like learning moments of like, oh, wow. I, sometimes I don't even realize where again, some of those early ways that I learned to show up and compensate in the world still impact me, this far down the road, even after I've had some growing awareness around it.
[TYLER]
There's a question that begs of me, is how, those can be hard things to hear. You know like you talk about your boss that that told you, "Hey this isn't working. This is your problem to condense down." For your husband to identify like, "Jenni, I don't even know who you are." And the reality is, kind of I've said the same about my wife. I didn't go over well, but I asked you in that sense of how were you so open to that feedback? And obviously there's care, there's love, there's whatever, but even in those situations I've seen, not everyone's willing to hear that. So why were you willing to hear it and say, oh, where do I need to go internally to look at this, to understand what they're saying? Because this person isn't saying this to hurt me. They're saying it to ultimately expose, identify blind spots, something I had to see. So you understand where I'm going with that?
[JENNI]
Yes. And let's be clear. I'm not sure how great my reaction was in the moment. And in either of those circumstances, I mean, ---
[TYLER]
Let's be honest, sometimes how you react initially has zero to do about how it affects you.
[JENNI]
That's exactly right. That's exactly right. I think that, one thing that has always been true of me is, at least I hope this is true, but I believe this is true, is that I've always wanted to grow and learn. At the end of the day, I have always wanted to grow and learn and be the best that I can be. I think that's what breaks through, even in those uncomfortable conversations and those moments where, and you made this point, but in both of those cases, it was definitely the people who delivered it were people who I knew at the end of the day, I knew really loved me and believed in me and wanted the best for me. So I do think this is important that even as leaders, the feedback we listen to needs to be trusted feedback.
I've had plenty of other people give me feedback about the way I do things or what I do, and you kind of learn to sort it and know what to trust and not to trust. But I think that that posture of I do want to learn and grow and I want to keep improving as a leader and I don't think we ever arrive. So that's another kind of core belief for me is that posture of continuous learning and the human humility, there's a humility in a posture of continuous learning, because it's like, I could be wrong. I might not know exactly how to do things or there might be a better way. Now that's not to the point of second guessing everything you do and never having confidence about what you do do. But there needs to be an appropriate level of humility in I can learn, I can grow. And then when that feedback is given from people who are trusted and they want the best for you then those are the voices you really need to listen to and if you don't have those voices in your life, that's also [crosstalk. If you edge those out I think that's something to pay attention to
[TYLER]
Maybe even edging them out because you edge, and this is what I want you to just give me some perspective here, is do we edge them out by segmenting them about what part of our life will let them see?
[JENNI]
Oh, possibly.
[TYLER]
Because you could take people to say they're in your inner circle and they're like, oh, they're in my inner circle. But you only let them see what little itty bitty piece that you want them to see. So when someone else is your husband and your boss are like they're telling you things and you're like, you guys are completely off base, but yet each of them have a little different piece of the story they don't know because you've segmented them into as a protective because I think that goes on as much.
[JENNI]
Yes it does. Yes. I was going to say, I, for a season worked for a pretty toxic leader and that individual was only as accountable as they were willing to be.
[TYLER]
That's all of us, right?
[JENNI]
Yes, it's all of us. And we're only as accountable as we're willing to be and we can orchestrate it. So at the end of the day, there's nobody to fully police it except for you. I think very much we can compartmentalize who has access to what parts of us and we can even sometimes create the illusion of authenticity, create the illusion of accountability and I think being really honest with ourselves about that is important.
[TYLER]
That's a big piece of self leadership. And as you said, just a few moments ago, one of the key elements of self leadership is always wanting to grow and learn. I appreciate the time that you spent with me and sharing intimately. And yes, I think that is from my heart and I can see it in your heart too, one of the best ways to help other leaders get healthy is to help cultivate leaders get healthy so they can thrive in leading teams is by being vulnerable enough to say, this is what I've gone through, and this is what I've learned, and this is what I'm still trying to learn. So Jenni, thank you so much.
[JENNI]
Thank you, Tyler.
[TYLER]
As we put a period to that conversation that you just got done listening to, I really come back and I reflect one on belief, which I mentioned in the open, but two, this idea that leaders always have to want to grow and learn. The moment that we want to put this armor on and protect ourselves, maybe we're scared and insecurity is popping up. We're wondering why we just want to put down our head and push. If we have the desire to grow and learn, it's going to create a culture of empathy, of curiosity, of just help me and explain to me, go with a wonder for me. As I got done with this interview with Jenni I stop and I reflect, and I look back at all my notes and I'm think I didn't get close to asking a lot of things that I really wanted to ask.
I want to talk about her culture conference that's next week. If you're listening to this the day, it releases on August 7th. It's next week. Go sign up for that get4sight.com. There's tremendous speakers there. I know you're going to get a tremendous amount of value from it, but just to hear someone that's so aligned in this idea of helping others get hold healthy. As the purpose for 4Sight is cultivate healthy leaders to lead thriving teams. Man, that's what I'm all about. So I'm so thankful for the opportunity to interview her, to build a relationship, to build a friendship. I can't wait till the next time.
Maybe that seems strange, but this is what I recognize and realize, is when and yourself included, you can sit at a table with people that make you curious, and you want to just ask more questions. This is what I've realized. They're going to learn, and you're going to learn. So go find those tables. And if you have to build them, that's fine. And honestly, that's what we're trying to do at the Impact Driven Leader community. I'm trying to build those tables for other people, because I want to learn about your business. I want to learn what challenges you're having. I want to learn how I can help you identify those areas that maybe are insecurities to where you can become healthier.
That's why we have the Impact Driven Leader round table, where we get to sit and discuss and go through these challenges. And I invite you to be a part of it. I really hope you got value out of today. If you did, please share it with someone. Go check out Jenni's website, her organization, 4Sight, get4sight.com, her website and go register for the culture conference coming up on August 12th. It's a free conference. Go learn, grow. Thanks for being here today. Can't wait to see you on the next episode.
